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Glad, you're right. There are warnings of combining the balms with heat, so I'm very careful to position the heating pad above where I applied the lotion. Thanks for the reminder though - it's always good to remember the limitations and interactions of treatment.

My herbal heating pad is contained in a fuzzy sort of material, like soft felted wool, and I double wrap it in a towel to provide adequate insulation for my back.

The balms have a similar purpose to Biofreeze or BenGay, but they're natural and don't have preservatives or chemicals. Gradually over the years I've tried to substitute natural remedies for the ones with chemicals. There are already too many toxins in circulation.
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Skunks with rabies outbreak here.

Tiger Balm, never tried it. I am assuming it is like Biofreeze, which I love. BenGay type of product? Be very careful of ointments like this and combining with a heating pad. I haven't done that since my early 20's, caused huge blisters the size of halo oranges on my back. And I think there is a warning on the packaging to not combine with additional heat.
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Skunks.

Now there is an argument for genetic modification. Chanel No. 5? Attar of roses? Chocolate coconut? They could have a whole new future as all-natural house pets-stroke-air fresheners...
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One skunk scurrying up the driveway as I pulled in tonight - I hope he doesn't spend the night in the flowerbeds
At least he didn't spray
It's too hot to close the windows
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Susan, I buy Tiger Balm and use it liberally after a good workout. It makes a world of difference, especially combined with an herbal heating pad.

BTW, since you're so energetic, would you like to come to Michigan and help me? I can send you home with masses of day lilies. I might be able to find some seed pods from my white trilliums as well.

Seriously, I have a backache just from reading about your activities. I hope you rest tomorrow. And, good job done!
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Thanks, Send! Back is actually doing fine, it's the shoulders and neck that are annoyed with me. I'll take some Motrin before I go to bed and be fine.
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Just a suggestion......
One ice pack for your back Susan.
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Tonight's tally:

6 trips to the flowerbed with boiling water to kill the weeds (and that's only one end of the bed)
1 trip to the store to buy new pruning clippers - can't find mine! Dad probably had 10 of them in the garage, but where...?
1 burn to the hand from the boiling water - not serious
1 nearly dead rosebush trimmed and *almost* cut down to the point where it needs to be
2 large piles of brush/branches removed from the huge lilac of Mom's - there's a couple of volunteer boxelder trees growing up thru the middle of it where I can't get to them, and the trunks on them are large enough to need to be sawed through - so every year, I just cut them back again.
1 hose holder put back in place - one of Dad's homemade contraptions made of 2 pieces of angle iron with a curved piece of metal attached to hold the hose.  I got up on a stepladder while DD held it in place and I hammered it into the ground with sledgehammer.  She's a brave girl.  ;-) 

1 tired, but happy person. I feel like I accomplished something, even if I'm not done yet.
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Susan, please be careful. We want you to injure the weeds, not yourself!
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Well, I'm doing hot water duty on the flower bed right now. Burned myself once. LOL I was worried that the vinegar just would be too much for the bed and wouldn't dissipate fast enough, so I took the other route. We'll see how it goes. I only have a couple of large saucepans to heat water, so I'm heating those both at once, and making trips out a little at a time.

I need to get some edging to keep the soil in the bed - it's right level with the sidewalk. Then I can put some newspaper down and another layer of fresh soil on top of it.
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Susan, you can help the one remaining live stem on the rosebush by treating it as a cutting, in its own pot, kept in shade until it's established roots. That's how I've transplanted in the past, especially for cuttings from cherished plants.

I don't know about hot water, especially if there are worms in that area. they might just dig deeper, and the hot water might only remain on the surface before it's cooled from the soil. I wouldn't want the worms to get a hot bath though.

Daughter, there used to be issues with the ink in newsprint, but I believe that many publishers segued into use of soy ink. I'm not up to date on this though.

CW, I read up on black locusts moving to other areas, and they'll probably continue with the Northern States experiencing climate change. These thing are monsters. The thorns are sharp. It's hard to dig them out w/o wearing heavy gloves and arm protection.

I might use morning glories, though, and they can easily kill the plants. In fact, I think I'll try that as the black locust trees just keep multiplying.
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I had no idea that black locust are invasive, I thought they were a rare Carolinian forest native plant.

In my experience the hot water and/or vinegar is only going to work on annual weeds, which are generally pretty easy to root out anyway, especially in a new or refurbished bed. Nasty perennial weeds like bindweed, sow thistle and creeping grasses will re emerge from the tiniest surviving root as strong as ever. I agree with Daughterof1930, covering the bed with cardboard, paper or even plastic for two or more years will usually stop most aggressive perennial weeds and will also stop annual seeds from sprouting, and as a bonus you can save on water. (But beware of organic mulches if you are troubled by snails and slugs)
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Susan, I’ve used a few sheets to newspaper to get rid of weeds on a flowerbed. I spread them all over, make holes where I want to plant, then cover with whatever I’m using for mulch. The newspaper breaks down in a few weeks, enough time for the weeds to die. I don’t know of any issues with the newsprint, especially the newer forms of it that aren’t as long lasting or potent as it used to be.
And you reminded me of my mother on the rose, she never could throw out any plant when there was the faintest sign of life! And I saw her bring back many that anyone would have called dead. Good luck with that little green you’re seeing and happy planting!
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Had the first of our tomatoes today. Delicious. Got gardens all weeded and a good watering.
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Thanks GA!

I had thought about solarizing, but I want to get this done relatively quickly as I kind of jumped the gun a bit and bought some plants to put in before I had the bed ready. (I know, I know...but the urge struck and I wanted to have them ready to put in the ground right away once I got it cleared.)

I did a bit of research and found a couple schools of thought:
1) the vinegar will hang around in the soil too long for plants to survive
2) the vinegar will disperse quickly, especially if hit with rain or other water after it's had time to kill the weeds (48 hrs or so) and replanting can then occur.

Honestly, I think the vinegar will disperse pretty quickly, especially if I give it a couple of days to kill the weeds and then give the bed a good soaking with water. I've used vinegar to kill weeds in the cracks of the sidewalk, growing in the dirt of the driveway etc - and it's *definitely* not a permanent solution - the weeds come back full force later on. So I don't see how it would permanently alter the soil in the bed as long as I flush it well. I also bought 80 lbs. of potting soil to re-fill the bed, since its getting dug up a bit in the process.

So then I looked at other methods - one mentioned was boiling water. I guess that might work and should kill the weeds relatively quickly. So I guess if I decide not to go with the vinegar, the hot water is a solution too.

After I started pulling the weeds, I see ONE green stem on Mom's rosebush that seems to have survived. Everything else on it is dead. Considering transplanting it to save it from the vinegar/hot water dousing.
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Susan, that's a very good question, one to which I don't have an answer. I've sprayed vinegar on weeds, but only on the weeds. Not all of them die quickly, but I don't know if it's because of insufficient vinegar, or that they're just tough weeds.

I've never "vinegarized" a bed, or anything more than just a small area. I think water would dilute the vinegar rather than spreading it.

I wouldn't use chemicals either; they're just too toxic, for anything living.

Something I've done is use morning glories to kill stumps as well as trees. They'll also dispatch moonflowers and sweet peas. You might plan some, let them grow as a ground cover, and when you're not getting any more weeds, add the flowers you want, either retraining the MGs to grow up sticks or stakes, or removing them so they don't choke out the new flowers.

Do you plan to use seeds or plants?

There's another option if you don't mind some unsightly additions, and that's to solarize the area by putting down plastic or cardboard, weighing the edges down with rock or something so that the heat builds up under the plastic and kills whatever's growing.

Cardboard will eventually "dissolve" and integrate with the soil. But don't use any cardboard with ink as I don't know how anyone could determine if the inks are safe for the soil.

I think one of the issues is how large is the bed? Have you ever used a scuffle hoe? If your soil isn't hard, the scuffle hoe removes weeds very easily. But it the soil is hard, it's a bigger challenge. I get the impression that you're weeding by hand?


Glad, I'm glad your locust trees are thornless. The thorned ones are really hard to remove - they're aggressive, they easily tear skin and they grow like weeds.

The black locust actually has lovely leaves - they remind me of large coins. But they're miserable pests. If I remember correctly, I read some years ago that they're an invasive species in Michigan.
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Went out this evening and started ripping the heck out of the flowerbed. Should have done it sooner - now the weeds have taken over. Oh well - it's good therapy, right? :-)

Got one end pretty cleared out so far. Question - if I dump vinegar into the bed to kill the roots of the weeds, how long should I wait before re-planting with flowers (so they don't die)? Will that work to kill the weeds and eventually disperse into the soil so I can re-plant? Can I hasten that dispersal along by soaking the bed with a hose? I *hate* using chemicals in the flowerbed or yard and avoid it when I can. There are no plants in the bed that I want to save at this point - I just want to rip everything out and start fresh. The one thing I wanted to save (Mom's 50-year-old pink rosebush) died this year - no leaves, no buds, nothing. :-( At least I still have her red climbing rose.

Thoughts?
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GA you just helped me solve the tree mystery. The neighborhood I will be living in has streets lined with trees. This is a newer subdivision so younger trees. Thornless Honey Locusts I think are on my property, because it is a corner, about ten of them. Thornless thank goodness.

Also learned that pods are produced from locusts trees. The pod on the honey locusts are quite edible, wildlife attractors. However the pod on the black locusts is poisonous.
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GA, I think a mature bull thistle with it's purple flowers is quite a handsome plant, though invasive scotch thistles are not!
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I thought of dame's rocket too, I've got a couple of plants that just showed up in my flower bed. And now you tell me it is invasive? ... of course it is, nothing that grows so easily can be anything but invasive! I can't help but admire big drifts of it though.
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Glad, just looked up Dame's Rocket. No, these flowers aren't as full and fluffy, but I do like the Dame's Rocket.

Thinking about them, my mind is stuck on a flower with begins with "L". I tried Lupine, Liatris, but they're just not the same plant as the one in the garden.


In the last few years I've discovered some wild phlox, as well as a wild Ladybell; it took me quite a while to find the exact match to what's growing in the yard.

Checked the clerodendrums - they're beautiful! I think I might get some. My gardening vocabulary has diminished so much and been replaced by dysphagia nomenclature. Maybe I can find some flowers or trees named Dyspha or Gia, or Puree, or Mush....

Okay, I think I found it - Tree of Heaven. I've also got an obnoxious tree with vicious thorns (might be a Black Locust???), thanks to the lazy neighbor who won't cut this monster down but objects to the grape vines on the fence.

As to Dame's Rocket, isn't it sad that some natural beauties are considered weeds? I can understand the thistles, which REALLY are noxious and obnoxious and aggressive, but flowers... how can a flower so lovely as Dame's Rocket be considered noxious?

I think this is a reflection of the need to control the environment, and perhaps the emphasis on grass vs. naturals, herbs, ground covers or flowers.

Perhaps my mental block warrants a trip upstairs to my gardening library and notebooks so I can hopefully refresh my memory, as I'm positive that I planted those purple flowers a few decades ago.
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GA are your lilac color flowers Dame's Rocket? Here they are on the class 3 noxious weed list. I have them in a different area of the yard this year. They are a Biennial I learned just recently.

Peanut butter tree. clerodenDRUM?
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You have had me searching for peanut butter trees, I've never heard of them. What do these trees look like?
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These are gypsy moth caterpillars, I did a lot of reading to identify them when they first appeared last year. I don't know where they came from or why they landed on my property since I'm not seeing any sign of damage in the neighbourhood. It's the same with my snowball bush, other people have them with no sign of lacy leaves. (I know there are a lot of different shrubs that are called snowballs, this is a shade tolerant bush with maple like leaves and small tennis ball sized flowers).
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CWillie, were the caterpillars the little black ones that create webs? Tent caterpillars I think? They infest some of the vacant land areas here and create massive nests. I've seen them occasionally in the annoying peanut butter trees (I can't for the life of me remember the correct name of them at this moment).

On a more positive note, my peonies are in bloom, the heat has finally gone and isn't predicted to return for about 10 days, and it's wonderfully cool and relaxing here.

There's another volunteer flower which I haven't identified; it's about 2 feet tall and has lilac flowers, not quite spikes but toward the top of the plant with the lower stems just producing leaves.

I grew some Liatris years ago, and it might be that it decided to move from the sunny portion to the shady portion. Or maybe the volunteer squirrel gardening brigade decided to rearrange plants, as they have done with tulips and daffodils for years.

I suspect I have a Gertrude Jekyll squirrel that wants its own garden.


This is one of those times when I wish I had a "summer room" attached to the house; I'd go out and take a nice nap in the chilly weather, inhaling the refreshing fragrance of this morning's rain. Fresh coffee, a nice breeze, fragrant air....what more could I ask for on a Sunday morn?

BTW, I think you asked sometime ago if deer could have been responsible for dispatching my burgundy trillium. The first time the flowers disappeared was several years ago; the following year I wrapped fencing around the plant and the flowers remained. I haven't had a problem again until this year.

I haven't seen the doe since that one night, but it's possible she came back for dessert. I thought of rabbits because I've seen them for years. I may have posted this before, but one little sweetie became used to me after I put out food for it, and one day snuggled up to my foot, crawled up, and took a nap.

That was a very special time.
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I've been eyeballing my spruce tree when I'm outside and everything looked OK, but then I looked out my window at dusk and realized the caterpillars - thousands of them - are hiding during the day and coming out to feed at night. I knew that one treatment with insecticidal soap was too good to be true. Yesterday I pulled out the big guns and sprayed as much as I could reach with Raid® (which also finally put an end to the sawfly infestation on my snowball bush). So it's a non organic synthetic pyrethrin. But it works.
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Linda- that is so interesting, I too am interested in natural dyes.
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GA, I grew the woad from seed. In many states, it's considered an invasive plant. It's a biennial in that you harvest the first year leaves, then the second year, you harvest seed.  If you google woad and hit images, you usually get a photo of Mel Gibson as Braveheart in full woad war paint.  There are a number of things like berries that stain but make weak dyes. Like purple cabbage. And some bright flowers yield boring tan colors - that's half the fun is discovering what makes great dye. The dried skins from onions make a good dye and you don't need a lot. I do set the dye with heat - I can get about 150F in a canning jar in my homemade solar getup. It's hot enough to set but not hot enough to felt the yarn. Sometimes, I heat the yarn and dye on the stove.  To adjust ph, I use washing soda (sodium carbonate) or baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) to raise the ph and citric acid or vinegar to lower the ph.  
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Linda, thanks so much for sharing your experiences. Would you mind if I consulted you when I start experimenting with plant dyes? Seriously.

I've been redesigning the master plan for my garden and think I'll create a Dyeing Garden, although I'll try to think of a different name that's less ominous when I say it. Maybe a Needlework Garden, with a geometric arrangement of plants (I've been working on incorporating triangles, circles, and rectangles in various configurations inside the beds) which can be used for dyeing.

I've found that picking raspberries turns my fingers red. I'll have to figure out a way to pick them while protecting them from bleeding, so that that the red actually bleeds into a dye mixture.

I had to look up Woad; I'd never heard of it before. Did you grow it from seed? Buy the plant? I see it's in the Brassicaceae family. I'm wondering now if broccoli or cabbage could be used for dying? Any experience with those?

Would you mind sharing some more experience when I get started? I.e., when you dye full skeins, how do you ensure that the dye is applied equally to all the yarn, or do you dye the yarn first, then skein it?

Do you have to "set" the dye" by boiling it in hot water, or something similar, after it's colored?

I remember my Grandmother used "old country" traditions when boiling eggs for Easter and used the brownish or red skins of onions.

Have you ever made a multicolored mix? I'm thinking of greens to blues to purples.

Oh, I'm so excited now that I've got to run upstairs and look through my bookcase (3 shelves worth!) of books and magazines and see if I can find a dye book that I might have bought in the last 50 or so years.


If I don't figure out the issue of pH, I'll be back to ask for help! I was thinking that some plants are sensitive to pH, but is there another way to adjust it, such as adding something like salt to the dye water?

Thanks for sharing this information.
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GA, i grow plants for yarn dyeing. I've been dyeing yarn for three years. What got me started was reading about the natural dyes used by Navajo rug weavers. I spent the first year dyeing small samples of yarn with various plants. Last year, I moved up to dyeing full skeins for knitting. Last year, I grew woad, which gave me 15 grams of pretty blue sock yarn. It's a form of indigo and is it a process to extract! The yarn was this sickly green/yellow then it hit the oxygen in the air and turned blue in front of my eyes.
I have coreopsis going this year (2nd year plants) and that makes the most gorgeous true orange. Altering the ph of the dye changes the color (ranges from tuscan red to orange to golden yellow). Marigolds are another one I use. And avocado pits and skins go kind of apricot-coral. My husband smiled that I'm the only person he knows who makes guacamole as a by product of dyeing. It's a great hobby - not very expensive, little equipment, can be done in small amounts of time. The sun is strong here so I extract the dye in the sun and also dye the yarn in the sun.
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