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A chuckle not a whine .
As abusive as my Mom was , at least she gave up driving on her own . She’s got one up on MIL . 🤭🤣
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It sure is, way. They twist things to suit themselves. I'm glad it's a short trip and you and dh can look forward to a good breakfast. Mil will frown on anything that she can't control or isn't her idea. As you say, "Oh, well."

Do what's good for you.
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Golden ,
Thanks for the food for thought .
It is very difficult to figure out the best words to use with someone like this .

It’s a short trip just overnight in a hotel . We never stay with her . DH looks forward to his NY bagel breakfast just the two of us before we leave to go home . That’s about it . The previous daylong visit is too long , but it is what it is . It’s only a few times a year . I may go out for a walk in the middle of it and get a break this time . I’ve never done that before , I’m sure it will be frowned upon by MIL . Oh well .
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I see a common theme here - that you will not rescue mil from her what you consider to be "bad" (call them unwise to be less confrontational) choices and lack of planning for her own welfare as she ages.

Also may be good to state what you will do e.g. You will be involved in appropriate plans for her care as she ages and give an example of what you are prepared to do.

Again don't argue with her about these issues - just state what you will and what you won't do and stick to it.

I understand your need to say "may" - " her lack of planning may result in consequences that we are not willing to deal with", but do realise she can use that as a loophole. It is not a firm boundary. It may be better at this point to clearly state what you will and what you won't do even if it doesn't cover all the territory. That leaves you wiggle room for dealing with some things and not others that arise. Just a thought.

Any master manipulator like her will use anything that isn't very clear. Boundaries, when stated, need to be clear and firm. However, that being said, boundaries can be changed as/if people and circumstances change.

As to asking her what her plans are, maybe take a step back and start with asking her if she has any plans for her care in the future as her abilities decline.

Dealing with people like mil is difficult and draining. I hope you and dh can have some fun/good experiences on this trip as well. Be sure to plan something good for you that you can look forward to,
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Golden.
Those are good examples , thank you .

The trip is our normal scheduled “ visit” . However we were wanting to reinforce what we have been telling her , that we will not rescue her if she travels to Florida or anywhere else . We also wanted to state some concerns , specifically ask her what are her “ plans “ . I told DH we are not going to tell her what to do . I told DH that her lack of plans ( no POA) is her problem . We will tell her that her lack of planning may result in consequences that we are not willing to deal with . DH is getting more comfortable with this I think partly because he’s so swamped at work . 🤷‍♀️

Everything you said is spot on of your description , MIL will have an argument rehearsed etc . She is very manipulative and will rationalize that teen drivers are worse . I like the idea of telling her we won’t be involved in her crisis.
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I was reading in my "Change your Relationship" devotion and it said something to this effect - for best impact say what you have to say in 10 words or less. Don't keep repeating, don't argue. Quite a challenge!!!

Way, mil is very manipulative, still has many of her marbles. She can rationalize what she wants to. She probably likes to argue. She may well have figured out what your concerns are and already have her arguments prepared.

Don't do it! It's a game to her.

I would stay with "I" or "We"statements to make the points you want to make,and few of them, and not engage with her on contentious issues. Let her go on if she wants to. Then talk about the weather or go for a walk.

Is this a trip to talk her into or out of certain behaviours, or is this a trip to state your concerns and set your boundaries?

Words to this effect - more than 10 but to the point.

"Mom, dh and I are concerned that you continue to drive. At your age with your health issues. you could have an accident and hurt yourself and others. We will not be involved with any crisis resulting from your driving.

Mom, in life there are needs and wants. Continuing to drive at your age and with your health issues is a want, not a need and potentially dangerous to you and others. You have other options. We will not be involved with any crisis resulting from your driving.

I expect deep down she knows she is pushing the limits with her driving. It may well take a crisis for her to stop. It that case there is nothing you can do to change her. Just state where you are at, and let it go. You can't change others, just yourself. This is stressing you - try to find some peace in the storm.
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Way, man, there is no good answers here, if she hasn't admitted to the fact that she can't do somethings now, she is never going to.

It's like your just waiting and hoping her health fails before she hurts someone.

So sorry
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Margaret,

I could try but I sort of think she would not get the connection .

She’s so self centered and entitled her whole life , that in her world, what’s good for the goose is good for the gander , doesn’t apply to her .

She also is in such denial . At times out of touch and things go over her head.

It may just have to be spelled out for her .☹️☹️
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Way, the problem with 'waiting for an opportunity' to discuss needs vs wants, is that it will probably present as you criticising a request as a 'want' not a 'need'.

Could you turn it into a game that someone told you about? Have a long list of requests, lots of them funny, and get MIL to class them as 'needs' or 'wants'? Doing it 'in the abstract' might be better than a specific 'opportunity'.
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Golden ,

You are correct . MIL continues to focus on a lot of wants and stays in denial about her needs and immobility . Very similar to FIL . Maybe they were too similar , hence the divorce 35 years ago . 🤔🤔

I’m hoping an opportunity presents itself to discuss Needs vs Wants . I may have to create the opportunity by steering a conversation.
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way - she wants what she wants, when she wants it. Hopefully she will quit driving before she has a disaster. Hard waiting for the train wreck to happen. I don't doubt your (aunt's) assessment of her.

15 yr olds shouldn't be driving alone as far as I know. Of course that doesn't necessarily stop them. Personally I would rather that the age of getting a license was a bit older - say 18 at least. Here a 14 yo can get a learners - whoa!
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dear way, huggggg. what a nightmare.

it’s the kind of nightmare so many of us caregivers have experienced. elderly people refusing walkers, etc., etc.

it’s rare to have an elderly LO who’s sweet and cooperative and appreciate and reasonable and in a good mood and kind and thoughtful and keeps their word and lifts the caregiver’s spirits up.
(i am lucky).
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@bundle,

MIL has plenty of options , that’s the thing that makes this so frustrating . She lives in a very active condo that has much younger retirees willing to drive people . One of her friends drives some people already . MIL admitted all she would have to do is put a want ad in the condo newsletter . She says other people put ads in it willing to drive people for a fee .

I do wonder though if she still gets a paper copy of the newsletter . MIL has no internet , computer , email , or smartphone or anything . She’s totally old school .

She knows a lot of people , she’s been on the HOA board forever . She is active in clubs . She would have no problem finding a driver . She finds everything that way like a handyman , and someone she pays to shovel her car out , by word of mouth since she has no computer . She’s like the mayor , she knows a lot of people .

She doesn’t want to have to schedule a driver . She doesn’t want to give up the being able to go out last minute . She also doesn’t cook . Eats out 3-4 dinners a week and brings home the leftovers .

She could stop paying the monthly lease payment and insurance on her car and pay a few different people to drive her .

What she really needs is an aide , she has her SO who has dementia and cancer being her butler while MIL sits barking orders to bring her things and help her get dressed. Last time we were there I felt so bad for the SO being her butler. And Yeah , she can’t dress herself because of such bad arthritis , her shoulders are frozen , but she drives . Her left leg is contracted from a bad knee replacement and has a dropped foot . She can barely walk with her cane that she leans too much weight on , refuses a walker. The cane gives to one side or the other and she falls outside . She wall and
furniture surfs inside . She’s fallen a number of times outside , EMS know her well now .
(4)
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dear way, trust your instincts. i bet you’re right to be worried. it’s very lucky she hasn’t hit anyone yet.

she’s tempting fate.

does MIL have options? can someone else drive her? people often continue driving because no one else will drive them and they can’t afford to take taxis everywhere.
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It's such a fine line, and so difficult to answer this, which is probably why it's so hard to control.

My uncle, from what I here late 80s was a good driver. Family didn't have any concerns. Then he got a UTI, ended up in Canada, then came home to NY, and went the wrong way on the highway, and was in a bad accident.

And some accidents could of happened to any of us.

Probably best is to start with 60 year olds, to educate them on what to watch out for in the future, and when it's the right time to give up you license, to prepare people for there future
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I think driving tests are a good idea .
It would take out some guess work and family drama . 15 year old is young . Is that legal anywhere anymore ?

MIL always argues that she is a safer driver than teens , ignoring the reasons we give her that are concerns .
I’m basing my judgement on what the Aunt told us . MIL has a lead foot and takes turns on 2 wheels , both of which she always did though.

But the aunt also said MIL doesn’t hit the brakes soon enough and ends up in the middle of an intersection , which we did see her do as well when we were behind her once . We also witnessed very wide turns. In a nutshell she’s too slow to respond the way she needs to .

Also I’m basing it on her immobility . I can’t imagine she can have great control .
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On another note, 3 seniors I know were recently in traffic accidents - not one was their fault. Those at fault were a young woman driver on drugs, a 15 year old driver and a young adult male. Just saying...

Nonetheless. as you get older, it is wise to give up driving while you are ahead. Sig other does the majority of the driving here too. I am debating what I am going to do next year when my next driver's medical comes up at age 88 (every 2 years in Alberta for those over 80). I think I will pass it and a driving test if required but it's getting to that time. We will keep the car as it is a great car for driving holidays.
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And waytomisery no not mean at all, the minute I found out my dad died, I got a hugh sigh , ahhhh, he won't be driving anymore.

My brother actually said riding with my dad driving, was scarier than being in a brigade in Afghanistan.
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Maybe when they do a drunk driving commercial about the effects of driving drunk, they should add a commercial about , awareness of aging driving
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“Ah bundle of joy - I get why she plead not guilty, what I don't get is why after all the evidence presented her apology was basically that she is sorry she hit those children but I deny it was my fault. Plus she's not even being sent to jail, she got house arrest and a driving ban.”

because if she had said anything else, she might have gone to jail, for example for manslaughter.

it matters what you say before, during and even after trial — even what you say years later.

there are also potential civil lawsuits, like wrongful death.

hence, she says what she says.
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If it was not a mechanical problem with her car she was at fault. That woman is a callous idiot.

Being a NYC girl I took mass transit to work my whole career. I would never dream of driving into Manhattan during the rush hour.When I moved to the Bay Area I drove to work but decided the train was better for me. It took a bit longer but I could read or relax and did not have the stress.

we only have one car here in Cali and I let my husband use 95% of the The time. I drive occasionally just mostly for practice. I have become proficient using BART and love the half price Clipper card.

I can hang up my car keys any time and it will be fine with me.
(3)
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We will see what kind of shape MIL is in when we go in two weeks . I’m guessing she’s worse than 6 months ago when we went last . I’ve also been thinking about having DH call is aunt and uncle that live down south to talk to MIL on the phone about quitting driving , once we can say how she seemed to us during our next visit , so we have a current assessment to report . The aunt told us her driving was bad when she last visited .
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Ah bundle of joy - I get why she plead not guilty, what I don't get is why after all the evidence presented her apology was basically that she is sorry she hit those children but I deny it was my fault. Plus she's not even being sent to jail, she got house arrest and a driving ban.
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before she gets to that point, hopefully she doesn’t hurt anyone while driving.
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way - not at all. It would be a great solution -being unable to get out or get in.
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Is it mean that I’ve been hoping MIL literally can’t get out of the car one day because her mobility is so bad ?? It would hopefully end her driving .
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there are many reasons why in court, when faced with a judge and possible conviction, you might not admit to something.

imagine she even did it on purpose. would she, or anyone, really admit to a judge, “i pressed that gas pedal on purpose. i was having fun speeding.”…?

of course not. people lie in front of judges all the time.
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Annabanana - I think the speed was the result of her shoving the gas pedal to the floor and that's also why she lost control. Initially I felt a little sympathy because we've all made mistakes driving that only by luck didn't result in anything major, but her complete lack of acknowledgement that she's the one who screwed up dried that up and has me wondering if there's some level of dementia.
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Cwillie , as long as she keeps telling herself it’s the car’s fault, she can absolve herself of her responsibility for killing that child (and seriously injuring others) plus future at-fault crashes. I read she was doing 120km/hr on Wonderland. (mostly a 60 zone)

I read a common remark in her case, plus Peter Nygard’s and more, involving criminal trials of old people, that galls me. The defence not wanting jail time due to their risk of dying in jail. I think some arrogant, irresponsible people need prison time to reflect upon their actions. Or their behaviours continue because there is no lifestyle altering consequence. I am having difficulty feeling sorry for them.
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cwillie: Misery:
I know you both know it, but this is one of the most common things out there. Here in SF a woman hit the gas instead of break and plowed into an entire group of people waiting for a MUNI bus. 3 are dead including a child, and a baby remaining hospitalized.
My mother hit the gas and plowed through an entire plant nursery taking out a bunch of young trees rather than young kids.
My brother drove his pickup back and forth, back and forth between a truck-size dumpster and a palm tree until his head was smashed up front, back and side, then was lying in the arms of his neighbor saying "I knew something was wrong; I knew something was wrong".

This happened so often in my own family that I gave up my license in my early 70s, knowing I drove to infrequently to be a good driver with an impaired left eye.
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