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Thanks CM. The place is very nice, and he stood in the available room looking at the space mumbling "bed there, dresser, desk..." which I took to mean he was envisioning his current furniture in there. I like that this one is part of a larger senior community, so if he walks outside there's chances to interact with people who are living independently, several were walking dogs when we drove in.

I don't see him actually acting on the suicide idea at this point, given that he didn't a few weeks ago when things were at their worst. "Too chicken" to use his phrase.

He has refused anti-depressant meds for 30 years. He just changed doctors due to moving here, so the GP relationship is limited, he's seen her once. I am pinning my hopes right now on the Center for Aging medical program, which includes medical, mental health, and social workers. Highly praised by my never-has-anything-nice-to-say neighbor, who took her mother in law. Perhaps they can convince him that depression is better than dementia.
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Hope, I know what it's like to have such a sensitive conscience. My own family (including nieces and nephews) tell me that I'm tough on the outside but such soft heart. However, when it comes to something that I don't want to do and they keep pressuring me, I tend to let it out, no holds barred.

Your cousin was not very nice to you. She had no problem at all disparaging you. Now that she's in a pickle and Her Family is Not stepping in to help her, she Decided that You will do. Do Not let her do the FOG (Fear, OBLIGATIONS, GUILT) on you. What goes around, comes around. Also known as Karma. You have your mother. She has her family. It's Not Your Fault that she's in this situation.

If it helps... "My mother is my main priority. I have absolutely NO desire to take on anyone's health issues. Your family should be taking care of you. If they can't, then here's a number to call for help. Good luck."
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FeelingLost, that must have been a complete heart-breaker. But you're going to have to call his bluff. What did he think of the place while you were touring it? If ever there was a time to accentuate the positive, this is it.

As things are, he has things to be depressed about. He is a burden, and probably a bit useless, and it's not going to get easier on you. He must miss your mother. He no doubt senses the "abandon hope all ye who enter here" aspect of ALF. But for one thing, he'll be a lot less of a burden once he's not under foot the entire time, and damaging your relationship, so at least he won't have those things to be depressed about; and for another how he understandably feels does not alter one jot the reality that his needs are going to increase and will be too much for you to handle.

You can't cure his sadness, whatever you do. It's worth trying to persuade him to take a more positive view of the move, but if he won't just keep in your own mind the truth of the thing - that living at home with you is not the right option.

Unless you have reason to believe that he could make any kind of effective attempt on his own life, I should be brisk with him about that and then immediately sneak off and squeal on him (in confidence, of course) to his GP and/or mental health practitioners. Is he taking antidepressants? They do work.
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Took Dad this afternoon to visit my #1 pick for assisted living place. Got a tour, discussed his needs, costs, etc. I *thought* it was going well. As we're getting ready to leave he says he wants to talk to me privately, not at home (meaning not where my partner—who he hates--might hear). Too hot to sit in the car so I suggested the couch in their foyer. He asks what timeline I have in mind for him to move, I reply by late summer, once we have results from the mental function/dementia/depression testing scheduled (as a special clinic for seniors) in July. He seems a bit surprised "so soon" (a few weeks ago when things blew up I had told him he had to move within a month, but I guess he thinks things are now okay which they are definitely NOT). Then he starts with the old familiar lines--he doesn’t want to pay for a place like this because he wants to leave as much of his estate as possible to me and my brother. Doesn't "have the same kind of relationship" with my brother as he does me, doesn't expect brother to house, care for, or otherwise lift a finger for him (but will still leave him 50% of everything). Then segues into how he wishes he was dead, doesn't want to go on living, feels he's useless and just a burden, wants to end his life. Admits he has been researching suicide options, and continues to seek something that he’s not “too chicken” to use.

Not even sure how to respond to this. I know he’s depressed, has been for 30 years but far worse since Mom died last year (sudden & totally unexpected, everyone expected her to outlive him 20 years). I know that sitting in his room in my house day after day isn’t helping that, or his mental acuity. I know the hostility between him and my partner isn’t helping, but I can’t fix that (Dad won’t apologize for some very ugly inappropriate things he said). I know *I* can’t keep going as things are. AAAARRRRRGGGGHHHH!!!!!
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Dad has Alzheimer's and dementia. Incontinent after hip surgery last year and hasn't relearned about going to the bathroom ever since no matter how diligent I am about putting him on the toilet. Wears depends 7/24 so I am used to changing and cleaning him (though I have to say females have alot less to clean if you know what I mean),My Whine is lately at night while he is in bed he takes his depends off and I wake to a mess in the morning! yuk I too smell the stuff all the time now, yet nobody else does.
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Very relieved Mom and L are now facility living. Bowel incontinence in mom had been the deal breaker for me, was expecting it. But, never thought it would happen with L first! Was visiting him today, saw the tell tale sign, a couple spots on the carpet. Just able to not see it and leave it to someone else to take care of! PHEW!
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Another thing to keep in mind with a DNR (Do Not Resuicitate) order - it is one of the hardest things in the world for emergency personnel (EMTs, etc) to follow. It is their instinct to save lives, not allow them to die before their eyes. We had to do this with my ex-husband's father, who died from cancer in our home. (I've been a caregiver so many times now....I swear this is the LAST time I'm doing this.) We had a DNR for him, because he did not want any extraordinary lifesaving measures taken - he was ready to go. When the time came, we had to actually step between him and the EMTs, because they instantly wanted to do CPR on him to save his life - we had to show them the DNR form and then watch as they stood there with the most helpless, frustrated looks on their faces as he passed. I felt terrible for them, but I knew we were honoring his wishes.
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I was going to post this somwhere else but given the abuse Iwill get back I amreserving it for in here.
DNRs - a DNR means exactly what it says on the tin - do not resuscitate

This taken from the California guidance on the matter:
A Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) Form (actual title: “Emergency Medical Services Pre-Hospital Do Not Resuscitate (DNR) Form) is an official State document developed by the California EMS Authority and the California Medical Association which, when completed correctly, allows a patient with a life threatening illness or injury to forgo specific resuscitative measures that may keep them alive. These measures include: chest compressions (CPR), assisted ventilation (breathing), endotracheal intubation, defibrillation, and cardiotonic drugs (drugs which stimulate the heart).

The form DOES NOT AFFECT the provision of other emergency medical care, including treatment for pain (also known as “comfort measures”), difficulty breathing, major bleeding, or other medical conditions. Many patients make their DNR wishes officially known because they do not want to be placed on life-assisting equipment in the event that their heart or breathing ceases.

A DNR is not an advanced directive - they are similar but with an advanced directive you can make someone else responsible if you so wish - dont make that a child the trauma of having to say ok enough is enough let him/her go is way too much pain tp bear

An advanced directive makes choices about the END OF LIFE CARE you receive and is something like this one again from CA. You cross out what you dont want and add bits you do want

(2.1) END-OF-LIFE DECISIONS: I direct that my health care providers and others involved in my care provide, withhold,
or withdraw treatment in accordance with the choice I have marked below:
(a) Choice Not to Prolong Life
I do not want my life to be prolonged if (1) I have an incurable and irreversible condition that will result in my death within a relatively short time, (2) I become unconscious and, to a reasonable degree of medical certainty, I will not regain consciousness, or (3) the likely risks and burdens of treatment would outweigh the expected benefits, OR
(b) Choice to Prolong Life
I want my life to be prolonged as long as possible within the limits of generally accepted health care standards.
(2.2) RELIEF FROM PAIN: Except as I state in the following space, I direct that treatment for alleviation of pain or discomfort be provided at all times, even if it hastens my death:
(2.3) OTHER WISHES: (If you do not agree with any of the optional choices above and wish to write your own, or if you wish to add to the instructions you have given above, you may do so here.) I direct that: and then you put in what you want in

Sorry for it being so long but I just thought it might help some on here
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Hope, it's exhausting to have to play "20 step mental chess" - it's where you play out the scenario in your heads, many, many moves ahead. It's a bit like the book If You Give A Mouse A Cookie....where you give him the cookie and he needs a glass of milk and you give him milk and then he needs..... It's best to not to give detailed reasons because if the stated reason/problem is solved (ie, "I don't have transportation"), this person then assumes you can now do what they want. So you just keep saying over and over that "it's not possible for me to do that" or some variation. Even telling her that your mom needs you there could lead to the idea that if she/you find a person to stay with your mom, you will then be free to take her to her appointments. Unfortunately, in these situations, the other person is often playing with a different sets of behavior rules than you are, so they don't see that their requests are unreasonable. And therefore, they get ticked off at you for not doing what they want.

Hang in there, keep calmly saying it's not possible and moving the conversation to something else. If she persists in trying to wear you down so you'll change your mind, you may have to tell her that you've told her you're unable to do this and aren't going to be discussing it further.
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That would be the one Hope. When mum was in hospital and not ready IMHO to come home the social workers told me the doctors were discharging her into my care..if she had been well enough that would have been fine. I have to say I loath this particular social worker she is stuck so far up her own arse as to not be real. So I got s$%t on and said good luck with that luv. (that is about as condescending as I dare be - even I know not to overstep it). She said it will be sometime tomorrow - I repeated the previous statement and she really got arsey. Have you got a problem with me?

Ooooh so so tempting but there are ways to be nasty.

If you mattered enough to me then yes I guess I might have but you dont concern me at all... my mother does. If you send my mother home tomorrow you will be sending her home to a locked house. She does not have a key here.

If you break in I WILL call the police and tell them I have not permitted entry and my mother does not have the capacity to override that. What is more if you leave her there alone I will call the police and tell them you have abused her by leaving a vulnerable adult alone in a house that she cannot get out of. Now madam are you going to speak to me nicely or are we just going to go our separate ways?

And what notice do you think they will take of that we have rights you know.

Im sure you do but they dont overrule mine

Her sidekick was stifling a smirk as the woman beetled off. I was on the phone to the social services immediately filing a complaint, then I asked to speak to the consultant - he wasn't available. Well I am sitting here until he is available and you wouldnt want that to be too long trust me , so either him or the on call I aint fussed but I will speak to one or other of them unless you want me to go higher and make this formal - very very formal. Amazing he was available after all.

He said he wanted to send her home. I told him no assessment had been done. he said she was as fit as she was the last time they had sent her home (last time they sent her to rehab for 3 weeks). So we had a nice little chat (grins) and he agreed I was perhaps right and she wasn't quite ready - she could stay another day.

The following morning I got a call asking me to bring the family and the minister in because they didnt think she would make it. She did but the doctor and I had a second little chat and he asked how I knew. Well I said I know what her wellness looks like and that wasn't it; you on the other hand don't have a scooby about what her wellness looks like you just go by data, so I have to have input or she would have died...

You should be a caregiver he said.....volcano time...WTF do you think I do - he was so shocked he just spluttered and left the room!
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Only by certain people, hope - narcissists among them. They can spot a helpful person a mile off, and within a family they know who they can lean on. My sis tried this with me. She came to visit mother when I was moving mother the first time. Sis was retired, came for a holiday, which she had, as she didn't lift a finger to help with the packing or move, G and I were working full time and had come down from 5 hrs drive away to do the move. Sis picked out the things she wanted of mother's, left them on a bed and as she departed for the plane to return to her home said to me, "You can mail those to me." She had had very adequate time to package them up and mail them to herself, but she is the family golden girl and I am the family servant. These roles had been established sometime ago. Once you get smart and decide not to be the "go to" servant, you say "No."

It is because you don't say no that people still keep asking. Say no often enough and people will get it. There are other examples but that one illustrates the point. She is also the person from whom I have had significant criticism for the job I am doing for mother, and she has criticized other things on my life. Finally I cut contact as I don't need it. You have to look after you first.

Your cousin isn't giving one thought to your welfare. Please understand that and allow yourself to get p*ssed off at it. She is wanting to use you and will flatter, cajole, pressure, manipulate to get her way. No way! ((((((hugs)))))
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Amen emjo. What am i missing here? ?? Does it seem to anyone else that once we get tagged as a responsiblecaregiver suddenly we are the go to do it all for every snafu that hits the planet. I value all of your input because yall live here. .in the little caregiver community. .no one else's opinion even counts. ..
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*if*
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You can't do it and even of you could, you wouldn't do it!
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Yep...oh so very right you are....it'd funny, i am not stupid, or a pushover when it comes to business matters or anything else involving standing up and fighting like heck for things that need help. But i have decided i should have "welcome" stamped on me considering these folks seem to sneak in with their wiley ways. No, i can't do it. .no, i can't do it. ..no i can't do it. ..no......NO...NOOOOOO!
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Hope - 40 % of caregivers die before their care receivers. Even if your beloved mama drew her last breath tomorrow, your answer is still "No". You deserve your life.

This cousin of yours has pulled manipulations before in her life to get people to do things for her. She is practiced at it. If you entertain any thought of helping her in any way - like making phone calls - she will smell it in the air and feel she has a chance to "get" you.

You do not have to apologise or justify, your answer. It is "No" or "No, I could not possibly do that" If she asks "Why?" have an answer prepared - like "I am not going to discuss this any further, the answer is no." If you give her the slightest opening she will jump in with both feet. If she gives your name to the doctor your answer to the doctor or social worker is "No, I have not agreed and do not agree to do this."

Keep it simple and very straightforward. My prayers are with you.
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OK OK I spoke too soon about mum and the papers. She did a grand job today BUT now she wants to do another drawer and another one and another one and if she says it again I am going to set fire to the damned drawers. I have unwittingly created a focus bloody stupid cow that I am.

More tea anyone? Chocolate biscuit? Blueberry muffin? drawer of papers?!!!!!!
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OOOOOOOH Susan you're a wicked wicked woman but I luvs ya. Hope we call that type of response ...cracked record. now I am assuming we all remember vinyl and how when the record got stuck it played the same words over and over and over and over and over ...and over and over (sorry couldnt resist). Well that's what you need to do. Same words same tone and never put sorry but before it. It has to be I cannot do this try someone else not I am sorry - the second you say that you are indicating you would iof you could but that really isnt the case cos you just know if she thinks there is a way in like getting someone to look after you mama she will use it. Something along the lines of I will pay fro someone to look after her if you will go with me....dont go there Hope the road to h*ll was paved with good intentions so dont let your intentions come to the fore or you will be in h*ll - we can all see it a mile off...they are bloody crafty arent they.
Of course what will happen is she will go to docs ...doc will say you need someone to take care of you now is there anyone who can do that and she will volunteer YOU so be prepared woman it aint over till the fat lady sings!
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Jeanette, what did you find out from the CC company?
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Thanks, Guys. Knowing that someone out there gets it, make sit so much easier--and funnier.
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I love yall....im going to keep repeating that Susan. ..my neighbors may wonder what i am doing talking to myself in the yard. Veronica i agree, they are wanting to "school" whoever shows up on the routine from now on. .it is not going to be me. .I'm getting really tired of telling her no but will keep doing it. She is counting on breaking me down and I'm not giving in this time and as much as she has pretended to get it over the course of the past few years i am really aggravated at her for even asking...i have heard when you make a comment and interject the word "but" in there it negates everything you said at the first. ..so her saying. .i know your Mama is your priority, but, i really need you to go. ..that to me is her almost ignoring my Mama.
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Hope, stick to your guns. (See what I did there, Jude? hee hee)

You CANNOT take this cousin to the doc. If you do, you might as well clear out a room for her in your home, because she will be camped on your doorstep, waiting to move in and have you care for her full time. Just keep repeating: "I cannot take you. Ask someone else. I cannot take you. Ask someone else. I cannot take you. Ask someone else." Don't get angry, don't change the tone of your response. Just keep repeating that phrase. She will eventually stop asking. If she starts thinking of you as mean and uncaring, so be it.
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Hope you are a wonderful person and there is no guilt on not taking on wiping another butt for the next ten years or however long cousin lives. This is why they want a family member present on the next Dr visit they want to know who is going to care for her once the bad news is delivered. Whoever goes will be chain gang volunteered into it. Let the social worker find her a place to go. She is getting close to skilled nursing care. i bet she can't even manage her medications properly. of course she wants you. you are so good at what you do. so keep on being good at taking care of Mama and no one else. Bless you Hope.
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I keep putting forth the effort of doing things outdoors but it is so stinking hot. ..plus the air is not moving. ..this is dangerous for folks who aren't used to it let alone those who are. ..i don't normally mind all things related to the outdoors but this is almost too much
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Chessasfo - parents are so much easier to take care of once they're dead, don't you think? Silly us for getting involved during the difficult years!
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EVERYTHING :)
You know how it is when you pull a muscle in your back, under the shoulder blade, & everything become so out of wack... difficult to do? Well, it's driving me nutz.... so is my brother who is putting me through something I do not deserve to be put through... After years of never being involved or helping with our parents, he suddenly no longer wants to take a back seat, but the thing is they're both dead now!! GO FIGURE
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Lol....haha..Jude you are right and i am busted. ..i DONT want to go. ..

Lol...i would like to have seen the look on your face when you're friend initially said he needed a pull off.....oh.wow
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Hope you tell fibs - you don't want to go either you bad bad woman ( said in my best Euphegenia Doubtfire voice)
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Can I have a humour moment that is totally uncare related please? A long time ago I met an American (online) who lived in Colorado and I arranged to go out for a holiday. I have friends who could do security checks etc. and he was an all round nice guy so eventually the day came when I would fly out (2 years after our first meeting and I wouldn't want to hazard a guess as to his phone bill we spoke every day). I was very nervous but I had arranged to have spotters who would whisk me away and back onto the next plane home if all went badly. We met and all was a bit stilted like you would expect but after we had had coffee our usual banter was back on and I let the spotters go.

Now as you all know I am British and we are indeed two countries divided by a common language. I got in the pick up and we hadn't gone 2 miles when he said
'I want to stop I need a pull-off.'

Now I'm no prude not at all far from it, but I was quite taken aback by this and certainly wasn't about to indulge his sexual fantasies on the road side.

He noticed I had gone very quiet and asked what was wrong - typical female I said 'NOTHING' in that voice that says EVERYTHING

'Come on there is something wrong'.

'Just take me back to the airport' says I.

He stopped the car on the side of the road and I had visions of getting out and thumbing my way back to the airport.

'Jude honey I will but I have to stop and I want to know what's wrong ...look there's a pull off about a mile ahead.... I'll stop there and we can talk'

Now he was faced with very red faced woman and I realised he and I had very different ideas about what a pull-off was. He needed to stop because a light had come on on his dashboard. I on the other hand had not thought this!!!!!!!

I tried to explain that what he was calling a pull off I would have called a lay-by and all of a sudden he saw the funny side of it for that has it's own connotations in his part of the world.

All went swimmingly till we got back to the ranch. We stopped at the mailbox about 800 yards from the ranch itself and he went to collect his mail (so I thought). He brought back a dark grey intimidating shooty hitty killy thing and plopped it on my lap saying dont worried the safety is on. Well so it might be but we don't have the right to bear arms in the UK (unless you mean wear a sleeveless top in which case it is bare arms) so I raised my arms in the air and said in the hoity toitiest of voice (h*ll I must have sounded like the queen) ...excuse me I'm British... we don't do guns. Well ya do now honey and you're gonna need to learn how to use it...and you know what? I did too - One of the most wonderful memorable holidays of my life with a very special man who quite rightly is now very happily married and deserves every happiness life can throw at him. If I won the lottery big style tomorrow I would certainly make sure he had a little bit extra tucked away so he and his wife could enjoy life a little more and relax a lot more
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Jude im dropping a lot of those "effs" as we speak
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