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KMD welcome to A/C . you will find a great deal of similar situations to yours with caregivers here. Most people find they just have to be the bad guy when a loved one gets out of hand and try and redirect rather than trying to reason. Once the disease takes over all reasoning power is gone. In many ways you have to become the parent and put things that may cause trouble onto the high shelf like you would do with visiting grandchildren. Try not to take accusations personally it is just part of her frustration when she does not understand what is happening to her and just lashes out mindlessly. Just try and smile and say something like "sorry you feel that way now do you want the pink towel or rhe blue one today then i"ll rub your back with that good lotion you like after the shower" at the same time talk as you begin to take her clothes off and wrap her in a nice big towel while you get the water running at the right temperature. One thing you have going for you is that she is not very big.
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KMD.. dad is always yelling we are killing him... changeing clothes, shower, meds or eye drops... You name it. I try to sweet talk him sometimes.. others I just say the heck with it and try later!
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Pam maybe you should just go ahead and start making arrangement for memory care for dad.I am afraid mom will not do anything till things get critical then she will just get so upset when it is forced on her. No one wants to take that step but it will be better for all concerned if this can be done calmly. Your husband is right to be concerned for your's and Mom's safety. He would not mean to hurt either of you but the anger and frustration just builds up and he may lash out. i don't know what goes on in the mind of someone who is demented but i can imagine how one might feel when faced with an apparently unsolvable problem. imagine trying to assemble something when the only instructions are in Chinese.
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I am going to call tomorrow,,, I know they will have a waiting list, but better to be on it . sometimes you get moved up quickly when those ahead of you decline/aren;t ready yet, etc. Even a respite break might make mom more easy about this. I have explained that Medi won't pay, but they wont take all her money as she is spouse still needing some! At least I hope so!
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Km, your profile says mom is suffering from age related decline? Has she been evaluated for dementia, and perhaps by a geriatric psychiatrist for meds for the combativeness? Might be worth a shot.
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Pam, if the meds are not working against your dad's aggressiveness, I would be very cautious around him. Please make sure all sharp objects (especially the knives) are all safely hidden from him. At least your father hasn't reached the stage where he has attacked (or physically hurt) you or your mom. So, you still have time to put him on that waiting list. With my mom, when became aggressive, she used her hands to hurt us. (She had RX meds for her aggressiveness but my dad refused to give it to her.)

KMD, I was thinking the same thing as Babalou. Was your mom medically diagnosed as age related decline? It makes a difference how to treat that vs. dementia vs. psychological imbalance of the brain. With the bathroom issue, I think it's because of lack of privacy. Hence Veronica's advise that you talk to your mom while she's in the bathroom doing private stuff. Your talking will kind of distract her from what you're doing. Hopefully. I know that it sure helps when I have the TV on when changing dad's pamper!
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I hate taking medicine. Now I remember why. Just taking that one pill, Citalopram 10mg, I had the mild ringing of the ears this morning. Nothing unusual. I get that when I take any kinds of meds. At work, this morning, my mouth was so dry. So I was drinking water. Which was not quenching the dryness. Sore throat came on. I was so tired by 2pm. I decided to cut short my errands and go home. By 4pm, I couldn't stay awake and decided to take a 15min nap. Woke up drowsily and this really loud ringing of the ears. Very loud. I got up from the sofabed to sit on my office chair. Sat down, and had a sudden surge of heavy dizziness. Whoa! That kinda felt good but was scary. As I sat there thinking about the dizziness, I noticed that my upper lips were tingling. Oh-oh. Not so good now. I get that tingling before I break out in rashes. I got up to check in the mirror. My lips are super red. And I'm not even wearing lipstick. I just stood there staring at my nice red lips. Okaaay... Time to call the pharmacy. I spoke to the pharmacist. She told me to stop taking it immediately. I asked maybe I should take it one more time to make sure of the reaction? She very very firmly told me not to take it. I'm to go back to my doc and try another pill. So.... that's the end of my first venture into a depression med. On to the next one....
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P.S... I'm Not taking the cholesterol or the headache pills. I wanted to slowly introduce each pill slowly into my system. I wanted to have my body get adjusted first with the depression pill. Then add the headache pills.
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P.S.S.. I found out that even though the pharmacy is in the clinic, they do not share the same info as my doc. So, when I gave my doc those pills (cholest and headaches) and the dosages which she entered in the computer system, the pharmacy did not have it. The pharmacist asked me in frustration why I didn't mention these pills to them. I said, "But, I gave it all to my doctor. She typed it into the computer. Don't you see it on your end?" She calmed down when she realized that I was not aware that their systems do not share info. I guess if I really thought about it - I would have known? But no matter how I think about it, I still would not have thought it did not. I just assumed with technology the way it is today, that all pharmacies Under The Same Insurance would have that capability. Don't you think????
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Book, you would think that in this computer age that docs would communicate with each other, pharmacies would pay closer attention to what they are dispensing, etc. That just is not the case. L sees a urologist and I have to request that the docs communicate with each other even.

A couple of years ago, the doc had called in a refill for Mom's seroquel. When I picked it up the staff told me the script was more than 1K. I thought something was wrong, but was assured that everything was correct. And it was very hard to tell anything since ts2 had just started monthly billing on mom's meds. Home I go. When filling up the pill minder the new pills looked different than before, so compared the labels. The pharmacy had dispensed nearly three times Mom's current dosage! And had I just given it to her without checking the result could have been tragic. After checking further, the doc actually called in the incorrect dosage since I had requested 50 mg instead of 25mg pills be called in because of having to give Mom three of the 25mg tablets. The actual dosage did not change, the 50mg woukd be cut in half. So, somebody was not paying attention, and the pharmacy ended up disposing of over 1K worth of medication.

The docs office messed up by not changing the quantity to be dispensed. And you would think that the pharmacy would question the drastic increase in dosage. Neither occurred. We have become ao reliant on our computer systems, people just assume that computers cannot make mistakes. What we all tend to forget is that the information does not get in tge systems by itself, that people have to enter it, and we do make mistakes. Garbage in, garbage out.
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Someone needs to come up with a nation-wide pharmaceutical system. Hire a programmer to do formulas for Insurance A, B, C, D. Under each of these insurance, set up a program to further break down the info to each patient's household. Further break it down to Each Individual of that household. Think of Insurance A as the Tree Trunk. Each Branch is the person's household (the subscriber of the insurance). Each Leaf on that branch is the person's family (subscriber's family under him -wife, oldest son, oldest daughter, etc..) Each member have their own insurance number.

When Member HH (head of household) goes to Pharmacy Coconut for his high blood pressure pill, the integrated pharmaceutical system will log this down. Let's say Member HH is on the way home and decided he might as well fill up that new RX for his headache. Pharmacy Hibiscus is on his route to home. Pharmacy Hibiscus pulls up his name, logs in the headache meds but notices that the RX has a major reaction to his high blood pressure pill. Pharmacy Hibiscus informs him of this. Integrated Pharmaceutical System. FYI, I made that up - IPS.

But, there are a lot of very very intelligent people out there. I'm sure someone can come up with this kind of a system.
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Update. Oldest bro did approach me a few weeks ago about oldest sis scaring him. He was passing by our outside kitchen window when he heard sis laugh aloud and talking to 'someone.' But he knew that there was no visitors because there was no car parked outside. Anyway, I told him what the odd respite caregiver (cg) told me about sis being cursed and how she must go to the 'medicine man' to rid the curse. My SIL (bro's wife) knows where this Med.Man lives.

So, this morning, they went to 'check him' out. See if this medicine man is the real deal or a fake. They got educated from him. Our people's medicine healers are dying off. But the newcomers from other islands - they're 'healers' are more like cursers. They 'heal' you but not enough to make you stop coming to them. They're 'healing' is not a true healing. He said that he's met several different healers from the different islands. He said that some of them are much stronger than him. He avoids any negative 'healing' (or also known as curse.) He has even said that some of these 'healers' practices are closer to 'voodoo' than healer.

When these 'healers' curse people, the victims come to him to be cured. The 'healers' don't like this. They've tried attacking him by curses. That didn't work. So, now they're attacking his family. Before these attacks, he would heal people at all hours. Now, he has cut back - because now his family is in danger. He no longer leaves his home/land at nights from 6pm-6am. That's when the spirits are very strong. And because these 'healers' are from less civilized influences of the 'white man', they're powers are much more stronger than our people's spirits. So, although my family each have our 'spirit', it's not strong enough against these newcomer's spirits. Our local medicine man's Majority of clients are from these other islands. Their own people curse each other a lot. Then they come to him to undo it. Our local healer said that these newcomers are now cursing our local authorities and people in high positions.

I know from when I was in my 20's, I was told by people who were missionaries of these islands - that when we meet these people at their homes, Do Not Drink or Eat anything they offer you. Because they can curse you from that. According to our local healer, he advised my oldest bro to Do Not Shake Hands with them. That is one of their most common forms of transforming the curse to you. He said that the curse can also be in the form of you now suddenly liking that person. And would do anything for him. Wow....

I have noticed in my posts here that I tend to be so ... modernized. Then my culture/beliefs comes along and I'm back to thinking like my ancestors - spirits, voodoo, curses, etc.... I also know what the Bible says about this. So, now I'm so torn on what to believe - and so I see-saw.

The reason why I'm bringing this all up is this. Once my brother had determined that this man is a real healer, he told him about oldest sis. The local healer told bro to bring sis tomorrow morning at 9am. Now, my brother wants me to figure out on how to get sis to go. I told bro straight out that I'm a terrible liar. Plus sis will get mad at me for Tricking her. The local healer warned bro that we must Not tell sis where she's going tomorrow. Because if we do tell her, the spirit will fight it. And sis will not go. Bro decided to invite oldest sis out for breakfast tomorrow morning.

Later, I was talking to sis. Since she saw me with them, she will know that I knew about this - tomorrow. So, to delay suspicions (note Delay not relay. Sis is very smart, astute), I told her what we talked about (except her and healer). I hope it all comes out fine. I'll update you all tomorrow. After it happens.

FYI, SIL doesn't think she's cursed. She thinks sis has some kind of psychological problem. You see, her brother also has mental problems. My new doctor told me that I really need to get help for sis. We're just covering all our bases. First the local healer. Then the white man's way - as in the clinic.and therapy.
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Glad you are getting help for eldest sis Book. I do agree against all my Western medical education that seeing the local healer is the best thing to do. Sis is so imersed in local culture that she will believe what she is told. Hopefully she will be afraid not to. All of this local culture is so interesting, at least for me. I can see why you are so conflicted between the two cultures.
The Pharmacist is quite right to tell you to stop the citropam. I am glad you did not start the headache stuff because one of them interacts badly with all SSRI which is the family of drugs citropam belongs to. Talk to the Dr but I am wondering if you try the migrain drugs and you get rid of the headaches that alone may be enough to help the depression. Pain is very depressing. It is always a good idea for everyone to get all their medications from the same pharmacy that way they have a record of everything you are taking.
there is supposed to be a nationwide system introduced this year where all the computer systems are linked so each Dr can see (if they make the effort) what ever other things are wrong with you and what treatment you are recieving. Everyone should always give their Dr a current list of all medications which was why I told you to take all your meds to the new Dr. If you get something new you
can always look it up and see if it interacts with anything you are already taking plus possible side effects. i keep a list of medications in my purse which makes it much easier for the nurses. Many time the assistants in the dr's offices these days are LPNs or medical assistants and they don't know their drugs so I also add the reason I am taking it. Look forward to hearing what happens to eldest sis.
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Keeping a list of all meds is a good idea both the common name and the long name since as Veronica says all the staff do not have the education about the drugs and nth other side have my health history and when getting form to fill out have them make a copy-if at a doc at my medical group or as Veronica said just take your meds with you.
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Book, thank you for the conversation. I think there is much to be said for your local culture. Modern civilization sanitizes and whitewashes problems people have in an attempt to categorize and medicate back to normalcy. I've often wondered if there are people who have demons who are making them ill. I am a person very inclined to believe in spirits and demons. Sometimes when I am dealing with my mother, it feels that I am dealing with demons that took up residency long time ago. Even though her vitals are good, her mind keeps her sick. I've sometimes thought that if some spirit of goodness was able to get into her that it could help kick some of those nasty demons out of her mind. But she has never been open to spirits of goodness for some reason. It is almost like she isolates herself from caring and sharing to protect the stronghold that the bad forces have on her mind.

I think there is room for both the old ways and the new ways of healing. In the US, spiritual healers tend to be quacks, which discredits the importance of spirits in healing. I do think that we inherently realize that much of our mental problems can be helped by opening ourselves up to goodness. But there seems to be people who are closed to receiving a spirit of goodness, so the evil keeps a strong hold.

Many pastors in the US try to attend to spiritual healing, but I don't think their hearts are really into it. I don't know if many even believe that problems can be caused by demons. Maybe it would be more palatable to people to think of these things as self-and-other-destructive characteristics that are firmly entrenched in the mind. They don't have to look like Linda Blair in The Exorcist. Perhaps they look like a mental illness, a personality disorder, or an abusive parent. If so, then spiritual healing would be very useful. I don't think you can order a personality out in the name of the Lord. I think you have to wash it away and replace it with a good spirit. Our old saying of "Only love can conquer hate" is a good example.
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Correction -- I don't think you can order a demon out in the name of the Lord...
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Jessie, you are right, we can't cast out a demon of a personality disorder.

One of the worst things to happen in the field of mental illness was the belief of some that demons caused mental illness. Some churches have held on to that view and it is no surprise that some people with a mental illness have found churches to be of little help and sometimes a lot of harm by telling people they either have a demon, an unconfessed sin, or just lack strong faith. It is a good thing to be able to report that not all churches are like that and that groups like NAMI (National Alliance on Mental Illness) are working with churches and other faith groups to find ways that faith, spirituality, mental health meds, and therapy can all work together on treating the whole person in helping them recover as much as it is possible a life with a mental illness. Change is moving slowly, but it is coming.

Thankfully, most of Western society has grown past that old view of mental illnes and demons, but sad to say Western society has gone to the other extreme of believing that there is no role for faith and spirituality in helping a mentally ill person recover. In a few, rare spots that is starting to change not only in churches but in hospitals as well.

The other thing that Western society is for some strange reason it appears that many Christians in the West no longer believe in the reality of demons which can be cast out in Jesus' name and the reality of the devil who can be resisted with God's help. Sometimes, we are too quick to give the devil or demons credit for something that is some dark thing someone chose to do. There is a balance in their between either extreme.

Before the title of borderline personality disorder, therapists use to just call those people mean. Now, we understand that a combination of nurture and nature makes them the way they are.

From my understanding there is a differentiation between a mental illness and the demonic possession of a person. Otherwise people would be casting the demon of depression, the demon of bipolar, the demon of narcissism, the demon of borderline, the demon of OCD and so on out of people.

When I lived in Kentucky, I sometimes hear about the old days in which revivalists would preach against the tobacco demon or the alcohol demon. Those are addictions not demons.

The chapter that differentiates between mental illness and demon possession can be found @ www.schizophrenia dot com/media/strength dot htm

I hope this does not develop into an argument about this. I'm just sharing my perspective and I believe we are all entitled to our own perspective without getting angry at the other person.

We must somehow discern the spiritual/mental dynamic of the situation. Are they acting like they are because something is physically wrong with them? Are they mentally ill? Are their personalities disordered by something that we can explain? After all of those questions are answered then we might consider something demonic going on.

One pastor who has a brother with schizophrenia has written a chapter in his book that differentiates between demon possession and schizophrenia. That chapter is online.
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Very interesting. I do believe Satan is alive and well on the planet Earth. I, as a Christian believe prayer helps keep Satan at a distance. "In the New Testament the Greek transliteration Satanas is used, and this usually appears as Satan in English translations. He is spoken of as the prince of evil spirits, the inveterate enemy of God and of Christ, who takes the guise of an angel of light. He can enter a man and act through him; hence, a man can be called Satan because of his acts or attitude. Through his subordinate demons Satan can take possession of men’s bodies, afflicting them or making them diseased. To him sinners are delivered for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved.". Written by: The Editors of Encyclopedia Britannica. Hope this does not cause more confusion.
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I think this is a good conversation. Sometimes in taking on new ways, we close the door on things that are really worth considering. I believe that people's perceptions of demons are because they picture these little grinning imps with pointy tails or they envision The Exorcist. Perhaps it is better to see demons as things that get a chokehold on us that cannot be explained by the physical. A good example is porn addiction. Yes, it is an addiction that has a physical component that goes with hormones and arousal. But it has a huge spiritual component that allows the addiction to take hold. I wonder if these types of addictions respond best to spiritual cures -- no, not the casting of the demon into pigs or unfortunate priests, but the spiritual healing of therapy and friendships. Replacing the self-and-other-harmful things with good things.

Therapy to me is a form of spiritual healing. We can get stuck in our therapy when we keep our focus on the bad in our lives without allowing good in to replace it. That is like eliminating a bad food from our diet while not bringing in a good food to replace the lost calories. Pretty soon we'll crave the bad food again because a void has been left in our diet.

I enjoy reading one of our members who is into yoga and other things because I see her chasing out bad things with good. I know we can all do this in our own lives, but I have to admit I am not a good person to wrestle with other people's demons. They are always a lot stronger than I am.
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Yes this is a good conversation. I wonder if as we deal with our own stuff if other's people's stuff does not become less powerful in its impact, but to take their stuff on directly without dealing with our own stuff first leaves us in a vulnerable, weakened position? BTW, I have some issues still left over that I'm still dealing with or that are dealing with me. I'm working toward dealing with them.
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My dad from the very beginning thought that mom was cursed. Since childhood, I have always resisted our heritage. Instead of embracing our ancestors spirits, I've pretended not to see or hear anything. When mom was at the sundowning stage, she was very violent. Most of the time, she had a blank face. Then her face literally changed. I mean the physical appearance. Like her face seemed rounder and more filled out, then she is so violent. One time, when she was sleeping, I was scared when That Face was on her. I had only seen That face when she was awake. It made me firmly believe the Bible and how when you're mentally vulnerable, the spirits or demons can easily enter you and reside within. And we need to remember that there was a war in heaven, Michael and his angels had cast down Satan and his angels onto the earth. I'm pretty sure these bad angels or demons are wreaking havoc amongst us. I always thought sis was opening herself up to the spirits by learning as much as she could about them. She got books on it.

It is very hard to keep pretending they don't exist. 2 years ago, I just laid down to sleep in my spoon position on my left side. I had closed my eyes when I heard a child sigh contentedly in my spooned space. Needless to say, I panicked. I pretended to stretch while turning so that now I'm in a spoon position on my right side. As soon as turned to my right, I felt this light sensation of soneone crawling over me from my back side to my front. I decided to ignore the spirit child and just go to sleep.
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well mom and I went and looked at lovely MC facility today, and were pleasantly surprised. His SS and retirement will cover a big chunk of the cost, They can handle his behavior, it was clean and well staffed. And no waiting list at this time. A friends mother is there and they love it. We are going to look at SNF once their flu problem is cleared up, but they had an information packet for me. Mom did her rehab there.. but it is 4000 more a month than the MC! and a waiting list. I still have 2 more I want to visit, but Mom felt better about things once we had the tour.. even agreed we might try respite first for a test run. The day is coming fast unless this clears up a bit . I am going to call the Dr AGAIN on monday and ask for a urine test... I was worrried maybe he had a stoke, but now not so much. Could be a UTI.. or just our new normal.
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Pam, it's great that you have options opened for you to choose. I can't remember if your parents also go to adult day care. That's also another outlet for your parents to be able to socialize and have friends. Plus respite for you.
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Cmagnum,

I totally agree that it is important for people to make a differentiation, when it comes to mental illness vs. a demonic possession. Another thing that I have heard over and over again, as I listen to a radio show which many times features healers,
old belief systems, and the impact they can have on people's lives, that cling to those belief systems.......That is that they warn against people looking into, becoming involved in occult practices that tend to be negative. They have talked of people, who are very confused, say as in drug addiction, or even an undiagnosed mental condition. If these individuals seek out negative practices.......these dark energies can take over a person's already damaged psyche, definitely people who believe so strongly in them. This is why I think it is very important to discern, and really be careful about what one believes also!

Much Love & Light! Margeaux
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Indeed! There are several sites online that focus on that differentiation.
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They came home around 12:00noon. Oldest sis gave me a bag of homemade local cookies that she bought at the flea market. Then she went out to smoke. I felt bad for tricking her (but will not admit any knowledge.) I went out to ask her if she wanted to go to her granddaughter's 2 year old bday party this afternoon. Sis left this morning all refreshed. As I stood there asking her, she looked so exhausted. She said no. She's really tired and going to sleep.

SIL came in to pick up her mail. I whispered asking how it went. Sis finally figured out something was up when they all were sitting down with the healer. And he kept talking to her mostly in our language and in English. She turned to them and asked, "Why am I here?" And bro told her that he thinks the spirit is bothering her. She said, "Okay." So, they bought 2 blessed rosary cross necklaces - one for dad, and one for sis. Since I'm not Catholic, they did not get me one. Sis still needs to go back to the healer the next 3 days for the healer to do whatever it is he's doing. He did sense the spirit vaguely on sis. He also gave her the advise to not be outside from 6pm-6am. But the worst time to be outside is from midnight to 5am. Sis is a heavy smoker. I've heard her go out to smoke even around 2am. I wonder if this will mean she's going to buy an air freshener and smoke in the bedroom.

As for me, I'm biased. I've always figured that mom and her mother had Alzheimer, that we might get it too. Mom got it in her early 50's. Oldest sis is about 57 yrs old. I just figured that she's mentally unbalanced and needs some help on it. Plus with her being able to see and talk to the spirits, she's open to their influences.
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Book, early onset runs in families. Has sis been evaluated for dementia?
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I often wonder who is demented more - mom at 88 or sis at 62. Mom now knows she's not "right", but sis thinks the problem is with the entire rest of the world...
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Of course not. She's like me and my dad and siblings. We avoid going to the doctor unless we have to. Well, I've been very good with my yearly physical. In the time since sis moved in, she has never gone to the clinic. She has Medicaid. That's the next hard part. I'm getting a headache just thinking about it. I think I will take another nap.
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thezoo, your mom is the demented one. The sis sounds narcissistic since she's not the problem but everyone else. From what I've read here, narcissists rarely admit their not perfect.
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