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Just wanting everyone to know Jam's husband passed away suddenly yesterday... prayers and hugs for her please....
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HOLLIS you have been given a lot to think about-if there is a support group for caregivers in your area it would be benificial for you to attend. Start with baby steps -think about what changes you need to make to have a good outcome. You do need to seperate your financies first of all. You need to take your power back-what you have been doing is not working for you so you need a plan to get your life and power back-make a plan and follow through a little each day.
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Hi Hollis, I know exactly how you feel! During my first therapy in May 2012, I vented about none of my 6 siblings were helping me with the 2 bedridden parents. I concluded that my family don't love me. If they loved me, they would help me with the parents. I was shocked when the therapist replied back in a loud voice that my family did not love me - said it twice. I went home and those words circled my head. I woke up a few days later, crying and seriously suicidal. You see, the therapist did not know that he just destroyed the one thing that I clung to - that my siblings must have feelings for me - just because we'er siblings/family. I already knew my parents didn't love us, and I did't have friends anymore (no time to cultivate it when caregiving), and no boyfriend. So, all I had left in this miserable life I was living - was my siblings. When the therapist did that, and went off-island that weekend for a month, I fell apart. I had nothing to live for - but years of living in a prison caregiving the parents forever.

I found this site about 2 days prior to my decision to kill myself. So, I came on AC and posted for help. I was given similar advice that you have - advice that I rejected, and did not want to accept. But, a few hours of thinking about it, I accepted it. Because Hollis - my siblings Do Have a Right to Live their Own Lives. They do Not Have to care for our parents in their old age. It's our parents responsibility to prepare for their old age..just as you and I need to also think of Our Future....//... I struggled when I was told that each of us Chose to Do This Caregiving. At first I denied it. But when I really thought about it, I did chose to do this from religious obligations. I could have turned my back on God and say NO I will not honor my parents. So, yes, I chose to this - although unwillingly.....

My therapist did not tell me to leave my parents - obviously because they're both bedridden. But he did ask if there's a possibility for each of my 7 siblings to help by taking one day each for caregiving. For those living in the states, they can Hire Someone on Their Behalf. Wow, I liked his ideas but ..getting the sibs to agree are totally unrealistic in that sense.

Hollis, I was like you and fought against most of the advice given to me. Once I accepted it (the ones I agreed to), I no longer was so angry and resentful towards my siblings. But, I will tell you this that when I told my sister this, she was so angry. She said that she will be angry on my behalf towards our unhelpful siblings.
Wow, that was 7 months ago...
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Hi Hollis~

It sounds to me like are very frustrated and angry. I don't know enough about your situation regarding your relationship with your mother to say yes or no to the codependency. If you are codependent, it's not incurable, you can do something about it if it is true. this next sentence I copied from a website about codependency: Codependents are people who let the feelings and actions of another person affect them to the point that they feel like they have lost control of their own lives. These are just some of the ways Codependency effects human lives.

Sometimes we make choices to do things for others that we do not really want to do but we think we have to do it because no one else will. I agree that you made these choices. The hoarding relative is a situation that is done and I would let that go. What specifically causes all the arguments with you and your mother? Is this something new or has it been there all along. I had a therapist tell me once that I talked about my children as though they were a burden!! I felt the same way you do right now. After I calmed down, I realized that the anger I had towards my husband for not helping or being emotionally available to me, that I truly was seeing my children as a burden. I didn't like hearing it but it was something I could change and I did.

I agree with Joan that you need to sort out the house and finances and you need to put your life first. Has a dr. advised that your mother should not be living alone? Why do you think she can't live alone? I ask because I do not know what her health situation is other than lung disease that you have listed on your profile.

Assisted living is wonderful and there are many great facilities. We have a couple in my town. They provide transportation to shopping, appts., to and from church, activities and independence while providing support. You can visit any time, advocate for her, stay as long as you want, take her shopping or out to lunch but you have separate living arrangements and you can get together with friends, take a part-time job. It is a win win situation. Living in your bedroom certainly isn't healthy.

Take some time to digest the information the therapist gave to you before you do anything, but I definitely would start putting your life first, health, social,etc. It's ok to let go, you are a loving daughter and have done so much already. Hugs to you and come back, let us know how You are doing.
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((((((((hollis)))))) I certainly hear you, that you are upset, and everyone has a right to their emotions. Without knowing more of you and your situation and why you went for therapy with your mum, it is hard to comment. You did make the comment that your mum is turmoil. In her health declining?

If you agree you are codependent, you are not alone and have something to work on. It is very easy to get enmeshed with someone you are caregiving. You sound like you are just about at the end of your tether. You have done a whole lot of caregiving, and it is a very hard job. Do you get any breaks?

Now you may not like what I am going to write, but this is the truth as I see it. If you just came here to vent, skip to the last line.

If you are not responsible for your life - who is? For better or for worse, you have made choices. I have been in the situation where I felt I had no choices, but later, looking back, saw that I did, but I didn't want to take them.

I can comment on a few things you have written here. I agree with the therapist that is/was your choice to do the things you have done. We all have choices. Some of then are tough ones to make and carry consequences, but we all have choices. That your mother might be best in assisted living could be the case. Some seniors are better off in assisted living. Again without knowing more it is hard to say. Facilities offer professional care, socialization etc. Since your mum is 84 it seems to me it would be wise to separate your finances. She will likely die before you, and you could have a mess to sort out with the house, and the finances.

I believe our basic responsibility is to ourselves first. That does not mean we have no responsibility for others, but it is important to have proper boundaries.

I am surprised that your therapist would recommend that you get up and walk away. Did she really do that? If a facility would be a better place for your mum, as a loving daughter you could look around for, and assist the process of getting her into one, and visit her while she is in there. If you are gathering resentment, lines and pounds it sounds to me like you need to look after yourself better, and put yourself first sometimes. No use throwing yourself under the bus.

My heart goes out to you for the years of caregiving you have given. Is it coming time to you to focus on yourself more? That can be difficult, but it is very important,

In any case big cyber ((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))) to you Joan
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hi all...I really need to vent... My mother & I just returned from "our" therapy where I have been torn to pieces. The therapist has told me to TAKE responsibility for my actions and my choices! She said it was my choice to have my mother live with me for over 30 years... !?! oh really? And it was my choice to sell my home in order to move her out of state due to health, and only to find that her older brother was loosing his mind? It was my choice to have to clean his entire acreage of trash and debris because he was a hoarder? The therapist now says that because my mother and I are so dysfunctional, it is time for her to live in assisted living or on her own. WHAT?! She is 84!!! Is this correct thinking? How do allow this? My mother and I have our money tied together as well as our home. The therapist hasn't even seen me to evaluate, much less had the time to help my mother figure out the basis of all her turmoil. True my mother is 84 and seems to be strong, but no one sees what I see. They dont see her breakdown in the grocery store because she feels overwhelmed and rushed!!!! They dont see her have a complete melt down at the doctor's office because they she just knows something is wrong!!! Now...how do i reconcile this new information with my therapist and to my mother? Am i totally wrong? To be told I am a codependent .... i get it. I read the books long ago and it isn't anything new. But to tell my mother she can live on her own with or without assistance when Ms. Therapist doesn't even have a full history or know of any aliments my mother has? Please...someone tell me that I have the right to be upset!!! I dont get this...i really don't. My responsibility is only to myself and I am responsible for my life as it stands right now? Wow....this blows me away. So...it would be responsible for me to just get up and walk away? Isn't going to happen.

We all have things in our past and present that we dont want to deal with, but we do because we must. My responsibility is to not just myself, but to my family. I might not like it, but it doesnt make me codependent. It makes me real. It makes me stronger for having the b^lls to do what others cant or wont. It make me angry cause I do the right thing. I dont get angel wings, I dont get a plaque, i dont get a salary....I get more resentment, more lines in my face and another 5 pounds heavier due to stress!!! And to top it off, I pay this crappy Therapist. Tell me im wrong please...tell me the truth.
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thx alabama - I won't give up on my promise. I have come too far along this road. The specialist returned my email, and thinks stress is a factor in the flare-up I have had. It has happened before. I don't think mother is capable of a sincere apology - or rather the repentance that has to come with an apology for it to be sincere. I fully expect things with her to go back to her "normal" pretty quickly. She has backed off before for a little while, but always reverts to how she was. Your sister is quite a case - a real control freak! You are right - it is so not worth it. I am so sorry that you and your mum and kids are caught in this. ((((((hugs)))))
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emjo You are strong and don't give up on your promise to take care of you. We all tend to give that away too easily. Sounds like the apology was not sincere. It is so not worth it, and I am very sorry that I got involved with my siblings crazyness. I should have just let her have whatever she wanted.
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Just lost a post.
cmag - Not surprised many BPD are in mental hospital or jail.You have lots of personal experience with these disorders.
sharyn - sounds familiar. Mother does seem to enjoy short visits with her grands and great grands, but does not have much if a relationship with them
I received an apology from mother, but it was mainly about her, her home care issues, her health issues, etc as excuses, so nothing has changed, nor do I expect it to. My next move will be to drop POA., There is no way, as long as she is conscious, she would allow me to look after anything without gettng abusive about it. I can't allow that anymore as it is too hard on me.
Hope everyone has a good day.
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sharynmarie, thanks for sharing that. Sounds like your mother was and is very complicated. Have fun putting the Christmas tree away. I need to get the lights off of mine and then get it out of the house for the city to pick up. My day has started late once again for I found it difficult to fall asleep last night. In a few minutes I'll go see my psychiatrist.
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Cmag~I can relate to the lack of affection and nurturing from a mother with a personality disorder. My mother was never diagnosed with a PD but I have talked with a couple therapists who said that they cannot diagnose her without spending time talking with her, but they did say it sounded like she fell into that group of mental illness and that she could also possibly be bi-polar along with it. I think she has paranoid personality disorder because of her accusations, suspicious thinking, lack of trust with family members that was present when we were growing up and even later when all us kids had left home. With all the grandchildren, my mother could be loving towards them but only when they were little and she could not relate to her own sons or grandsons. Once the grandchildren got through the toddler ages, she stopped relating to them, no more hugs or any type of loving behavior. With her it was as long as she got unconditional love from them (the way a pet gives love and attention) she could give love and attention back. She never developed a close relationship with any of us kids or her grandchidren. I have noticed that if my kids give her a hug, she accepts it, but with my sis and me, she pushes us away. It boggles my mind that my mother was able to develop relationships with a couple of ladies she worked with for many years...they think very highly of mom and tell me how they just love her to pieces. Gotta go start the day, put the Christmas tree away for another year. My cat will be disappointed as he loves to hide under it and attack when we walk by, Lol!!Have a good day everyone.
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emjo, I often wonder about the impact of prayer upon various personality disorders in the sense of maybe prayer and fasting for those are tough disorders to crack. I've often heard that many women with borderline personality disorders are in our hospital mental wards when they need medical help and the men with borderline personality disorders are in mainly in prison. I agree that narcissistic mums are tough on their children! Before her major stroke and being so doped up to keep her stable, my mum was one, but she was worse when I was younger as we've discussed. The borderline mother is rough also and has a strong narcissistic streak. My wife and my SIL are divided about what their mother is. One says narcissist and the other says borderline. In light of the book, Understanding the Boderline Mother, I would say that my MIL is a combination of the queen and the witch borderline mother for her worshipfulness is an exact copy of 'mommy dearest', etc. need I say more. My wife wonders if her mother ever really loved her dad. I would question this too given how enslaved he was by her. He had been a shy 'mommy's boy' whom she just took over completely. They did not have an adult-adult relationship. He was a very intelligent and nurturing man, but she lacked any nurturing cell in her entire being from what I've seen and what I've heard about how she related with her daughters. I don't think narcissist or borderlines are capable of giving love and nurture except to appear to do so for the sake of what they can get out of the person. Dang, my mother even admitted when I was almost 30 that she knew that she had not met my emotional needs as a child or as a teenager. Then she claimed she would do better with her grandchildren which sad to say she didn't. I don't think she knew how to given the kind of mother she had and the overall home environment. Her mother never really built a close relationship with any of us grandchildren. Prayers continue.

Prayers, love and hugs to all and to all a good night.
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Margeaux, thanks for asking. My wife is doing very well with PT and they hope to soon have her free from the walker and using a cane. I'm on a roller coaster lately that I don't understand other than maybe I've tried to do too much too soon, but anyhow, I returned to the YMCA Wednesday night after being absent for the last 2 or years. I went around 7 pm and did the same thing on Thursday night. However, each night, I found it impossible to fall asleep and Thursday night was the worst, that is 5 am and had to get up between 8-9 to take wifey to the PT. Friday, I was stiff and sore plus tired. I don't remember when I went to bed Friday night, but I was groggy all day Sat. which I spent most of in bed. I have paid the price of two nights of poor sleep. On top of all that I've had some repeated flashbacks from my past. Last night, I went to bed at 12 and got up today at 12:30 pm. I did return to the Y tonight and tried to not over do it. Emotionally, I've been too easily irritated by things and have just wanted to be in my man cave a whole lot which I've done. I'm not sure that I can blame all of this up and down on my bipolar disorder alone. I'm going to see what my psychiatrist thinks of this when I see her in the morning.
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thx envision. My mum has borderline personality disorder and is narcissistic, so her emotional range is not normal. Anytime I give her attention, it is seen by her as an opportunity to play games for her benefit. It is her mental illness. I do not believe she has the same feelings as normal people do -for example as you did when you were cut off. I really do not think she suffers much when she doesn't hear from me. She just gets mad becaise I am not doing what she wants me to do, and then finds someone else to give her attention, I do not remember any warm hugs or touches from my mother in my whole childhood, nor any kind words. She just did not have it in her. I see in your profile your mum was your best friend. Mine was my worst enemy, and still is in some ways. She has done and said things to me that are terrible. It was a nightmare growing up. If you have not experienced that, I know you cannot understand. People with personality disorders ruin relationships, and narcissistic mothers are very hard on their children, especially their daughters. I do appreciate prayers, always, and continue to pray for my mum and sister.
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emjo, prayer for you and your mom... consider sending her a nice card in the mail, every now & then. on the level she has capable of, i am sure she love you very much, and will suffer too much if she never hears from you. i know when my sister was upset with me, she didn't speak to me for about 2 years. i didn't even know why she was angry. i found out later that it was because she was jealous of the time my mom and I spent together. well, that being said, i guess my point is, it was very painful for me when my sister cut off communication completly. :)
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thx alabama - I will. The support here helps. Sounds like dirty pool to me - - hiring someone who did not interview you. Could this decision ensure that you get to visit with your mum? Do you have any thoughts as to why your sib is like this? Brandywine mentioned her sib was a warden - sounds like that. Unreal, cruel and sick! ((((((((((((hugs)))))))))))
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emjo Stay strong. My mother's Health Care POA papers require 2 doctors to declare incompentency, and sib only had documentation of the one that SHE hired and will pay for out of my mother's estate. Still waiting on clerk for decision. All other doctors have said competent so she has to hire one (who did not interview me, by the way) to do her dirty work. OH WELL. I have had no visits with my mother and one phone call since Nov 24th. Unreal and cruel.
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Thx cat. Mother WILL be kept at a distance. No question of that, and it anyone doesn't like it their email be blocked too. It was only a matter of time, and the opportune moment. Truly I wish it wasn't needed, but my body is telling something I cannot ignore. Prayers much appreciated ♥
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Hey Joan: Sending you some white light. Glad you sent the letter and I hope you can keep mom at the necessary distance. I really admire and respect your insight. Get well my friend. Love and Hugs, Cat
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thanks MyWitsEnd - another time it was undercooked porridge. Yes, I should immediately drive 5 hrs and discuss boiled potatoes with the social worker there, She makes everything into a Federal case, elder abuse, etc. Is home care perfect - no, of course not. They have too much to do, and she is pretty healthy. They do rush through their jobs, but she is well fed, and in a beautiful apartment. Some of the home care staff are recently from other countries and may not be familiar with our ways. More than likely she is watching them with a crirical eye, and it was not done exactly as she thinks it should be. She spends her days looking for things that are "not right", thinking about them, and making them into federal cases, and also seeing plots behind them.e.g. - this was done in order to force her out of her ALF. It is all part of a plan.... as if people there didn't have enough to do without spending their time thinking up plots. It is laughable, but what she writes me is not, and also triggers past hurts. My only solution is to give myself space/ distance and if necessary cut off the emails. The ALF and/or hospital can still call me if she really is in trouble. Like my health should suffer for improperly boiled potatoes. This is the pattern of her lifetime. We could not go out for a Sunday afternoon drive without her finding something wrong and having a temper tantrum, and blaming someone. Growing up with her was horrible. She hasn't changed -well she may have mellowed a bit, but not enough.
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Emjo-Sorry to hear you're not feeling well. Stress definately affects us physically. You have to do what you have to do for your own health. I had to laugh though at the home health aid not knowing how to boil potatoes. You're supposed to fix that?by all means, drop everything and get on that! Good grief. No pun intended :).
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((((((((((((envision))))))) thank you so much for that. I agree. In the past counsellors have told me to divorce my mother and sis. Recent ones see that I have good relationships, had a good career (retired now). have my life in order, and am healthy in many ways, but my "gut" instincts tell me that the stress from my mother is a root cause for this illness. It flared up "out to control" (and doesn't that phrase describe her) when I moved her out of her apartment into her first ALF, and the 5 ring circus has not stopped since then, nor has the infection.

Thank you again . Hope things are more reasonable with you and your dad. (((((((hugs))))) Joan
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Thanks sharyn, I am feeling much better already. I have had no energy the past few days, but have cleaned the kitchen counters, have the oven on clean, am thawing the turkey carcass for soup, and have plans to go grocery shopping. I am sure the stress from mother is significant in this, and if I have to cut her out of my life altogether I will. It is not that I want to, but I may have to for my own survival. I have emailed the specialist and told her what is happening, and will call her tomorrow if I don't get an answer pretty quickly. I am still reading the book "When the Body says No", and it has opened my eyes as to how much these dysfunctional relationships affect out health. I ordered a new book
"Will I Ever Be Good Enough?: Healing the Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers" by Karyl McBride. Of course, I know the answer to the question. For my narcissistic mother I will never be good enough, do enough, and so on. But one review mentioned that the book leads you through a healing process and to the point where you may want to cut contact. That is the part I am interested in. IU inow I am getting closer alklk the time. It is not out of anger, but self preservation - love of self, which has to balance love of others. Hope you have a great day. (((((((((hugs))))))) back to you!
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a counselor once told me "If you think something is killing you, it probably is."
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Joan~we must have been posting at the same time. I am sorry things are escalating with your mother and the infection. Yes, you need to put your foot down and takecare of you first. Prayers, positive thoughts going your way. Keep us posted and I hope the stronger meds clear things up without side effects. You sound like you are feeling better already. Hugs to you!!
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Alabama~ I am so sorry you and your mother are being drug thru a court battle. I hope you are able to state your issues and concerns before the judge and that you make sure that if your sister gets guardianship that you will be able to visit your mother.
Riz~You are not responsible for rehabilitating your brother. Is this the brother that you tried to help once before by letting him live with you and your husband? Please don't feel guilty about not helping. He has choices to make for his life and only he can make the right choice. You and your husband deserve your time together now.
Margeaux~For the life of me I can't understand people who will not acknowledge people when they come in their home. My husband has some family members like that too. I can't help but feel it is because there is strong control issues in his family. Sounds like you are doing the right thing by distancing yourself from their dysfunction.
Joan~Sorry you are not feeling well on top of all that is going with your mother. The rubber room has space available if you need it, Lol!! You have such a healthy attitude and you have distanced yourself quite well from your mother, but it is still difficult to deal with the behaviors of a narcissist even from a distance. If my mother had not developed dementia, my relationship with her would be very distant and limited. Your health is important so continue to focus on that and I hope you are feeling better soon.
Hugs to everyone!!
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Well, I sent the letter. Last nuight.this morning, I had 5 manipulative emails pressuring me, saying she needed me to get involved, that she had told everyone that I was handling things, to handle this latest thing, ( the homecare last night did not know how to boil potatoes apparently - motter is quite capable of showing her, though I question whether or not it is true) pretending that she does not know how to handle it, and similar matters, wanting me to contact this one and that one. So I said no, and sent her the letter. I said that I would drop being POA and block her emails if necessary. and that my health was affected by the stress of her pressuring, then accusing me etc etc, and that I could not be involved.
I have greater resolve with this as it became obvious to me last night that the safe meds I am on are not working anymore - that was the reason I have been so fatigued, had cramps and was sweaty at night. The bug must have mutated. I got up and took one of the pills I was on before, and within hours I started to feel better. Praise God! I have energy again. Woot woot!. I am not happy about the safe meds not being effective anymore, as the one I am back on can be hard on the liver. I have emailed the specialist and asked where do go from here. Prayers would be appreciated for a once, and for all answer to this infection. I do believe getting out from under the stress of mother is part of the answer. When I was reading the emails my first thought was "This makes me sick to my stomach" I guess it does, and I have to protect myself. Thanks for the support. ♥ hugsd and prayers. Joan
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Going to catch up in chunks here - my cold got worse, sinus infection, triggered fibromyalgia -I am sure the stress of mother contributed and she is in a roll again. I'm backing off right now.
sharyn sounds like you have a good plan. Praise God for answered prayers. I so believe in prayer and see results in my life. Things are coming together for this stage for you anyway. I do hope the antidepressant helps. Guess we have to keep praying that she signs all the forms you need her to. Glad you had a good day with your hubby.
margeaux -glad you had a quiet new years - me too and glad you are staying detached.Sounds like those young peopke have no social skills at all, and that will hurt them in life, You are right one size does not fit all women, and sometimes all we want is someone to listen to us, and be supportive. I do think there are a lot of narcissists in your family. My dd can display those type if manners -or lack of too.
book - educating yourself helps so much, I find. We are all learning all the time, and from one another - we all need ME time
austin you are so right -you can't change others, only yourself
Riz - hi -absolutely no way can you be your bro's caregiver. You are NOT mean, just realistic and protective of yourself and your family. Don't let guilt creep in here. You are not running a rehab center and you are not responsible for him. I hope he can get the help he needs- as you say -far away. Stay strong!
alabama - so sorry to hear your mum broke her shoulder, but good that she was in court. It must have been horrible sitting in court, and listening to your sis. Your mum must be considered to be competent. Let us know what finally comes down from the clerk.
Well I wrote a letter to mother stating my concerns and limits if I am to stay as POA, but didn't send it. She is off in another tangent, so I will wait till she demands my involvement there she has already started hinting at it - and, use the last time as an example. Her doctor retired at age 80 - good thing I think, and she will see her new doc tomorrow. I expect she will not get on as well with the new one, but we will see.
Hope everyone is having a good weekend. My new year's resolution is to improve some aspect of my life in 2013 - to have a better year. Dealing better with mother is one of the top items.
♥, hugs and prayers Joan
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Spent whole day last week in court as evil sibling works to have mom declared incompetent. Sadly, my mother had fallen the day before and broke her shoulder, but Mom was in court, sleeping the entire time. The last recommendation from her guardian ad litem was financial person, no guardian of the person, because evil sibling is blocking me from visiting and mom wants to see both of us What a mess, but my narcissist sibling had no problem sitting on the stand and stating lie after lie after lie. Unreal. Waiting on final from clerk. SO sad to see the family laundry hung out for all to see. Dirty Dirty.
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Hi everyone!!

Today has been a kick back day for hubby and me. He went to Costco to stock up on some staple items and I went to the grocery store to get lasagna pasta and cheese. I made a big pot of Minestrone soup the other day and a big pot of marinara sauce. I over did the veggies for both pots and today added more beef broth to the soup and made up 6 containers to freeze for mom the rest I froze of us. We had spaghetti last night so today with the left over sauce, I am making lasagna and will take that over with the soup to moms later. To answer your question Margeaux, I am doing well considering all that has been going on. I does tear me up emotionally when I think how my mom is all twisted up with so much anxiety and fear. It reminds of when I was so depressed in my 30's and would get so paralyzed with anxiety that I couldn't function. When you add Alz and a personality disorder to the mix it must be horrible for mom. I am feeling good about the situation at this point. Sis told me last night she was literally exhausted for being so patient with mom yesterday. She doesn't have the patience I do with mom so it is a real struggle for her. Sis did say that it was a good afternoon with mom and she was able to joke with her a little. I am so glad sis and I can work together even tho sis can frustrate me with her strict rule following (like mom) with no grey areas to the rules. Next Wednesday is the appt. for mom's dog to get groomed and it is my dad's 86th birthday. After taking the dog to the groomers, we will stop at the cemetery to visit dad. Mom hasn't been out there in quite a while. Enjoy the weekend everyone and hugs to all!!
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