The Caregiver & Dysfunctional Families: How are you doing?

Hi All!!
Cmag~ It sounds like you may have found the answer to why your energy is low. Now, I know you have not been pregnant, Lol!! but after my daughter was born, I had a low thyroid. At that time (mid 80's) I was told I would have to take Thyroxine for the rest of my life. By the mid 90's it started running a little high and I was told that it is common for pregnancy to deplete the thyroid and it is not condition I had to continue to treat. I know hypothyroidism is very different, but at the time it happened, the meds made a big difference in how I felt. I am happy to hear that in time you should be feeling much better.
Joan~Glad your trip was enjoyable and how fun to meet up with old friends!! I saw your pic of the falls...so much raw power in all that water!! Theater tickets sounds wonderful, I hope you get the date you want.
I am feeling better, but not fully recovered. The bronchitis is a bugger so I am going to go to the doc tomorrow for an antibiotic. Yesterday I took mom grocery shopping, I had some groceries to get as well so we each had our own carts and did own thing. At the check out, mom started putting all her groceries back in the cart after the clerk scanned them, but she didn't put it in bags. The courtesy clerk came over and asked her if she wanted bags, mom said no...but she looked confused and so was the courtesy clerk, Lol!! I quietly told the clerk to bag the groceries and that she (mom) is just confused. Poor mom. Today my sis and I met over at mom's to replace the felt like strip on the threshold on her front door. Surprisingly enough, mom has been very pleasant to be around lately. She misplaces things daily but always finds them in a few hours. It is easier to let her look for things than for me to be running over there daily. I too need structure. My job is so fast paced that on my days off I don't want to rush and the end result is I don't get things done like I want to.Something to work on for the new year. For some reason, I have more energy at night, but can't do things then without waking up hubby. Everyone take care and happy health to all!!

austin - good idea. I may try that.
margeaux - good for you clueing into people pleasing, and setting more boundaries. I found as I get older I don't have the energy for these :battles" so better boundaries are a must
book - hope you can find some time for you. I know you have a huge load with bith parents and a job, Could you get audio books to listen to in the car?
cmag - the thyroid meds will take weeks to fully kick in. I have been on it for years, but you will likely notice some improvement quite soon. I check my level about every 2 months as mine was bouncing around, Not everyone needs to do that. Good luck with structuring your day - something I should work on too, since retirement.
sharyn - wondering where you are, and how you are. Those infections can really drag you down. Hope you are recovering, and your mum is behaving.

Everyone - look after you. Love Joan

I know I need structure in my life especially with housework-I set a timer for an hour and do not stop working until the timer goes off then give myself about 15 min. to go on the computer or read then back to work for an hour after doing this 4 or 5 times I am surprised how much I get done. I also need to know a few days ahead what I will be doing on each day-my new friend tends to want to wait to make plans and that does not work for me so he has to decide at least the night before if we are going to see each other on a certain day.

Hi Bookworm,
Thanks for the compliments about setting boundaries. It's a big work in progress my dear, believe me. I too have been someone in my family that doesn't rock the boat.
I've also done my share of people pleasing. But being around especially someone such as my sister, who is a big controller, plus one of her grown daughters, I've grown tired of listening to my sister's flip flopping attitude about a variety of complaints. She'll complain and complain, gets me convinced that she is having an issue w/something. Then she's tried of course getting me involved into sympathizing with her. But then a few days later, she just flip flops to the complete other side of what her current drama is. So now that I've zeroed into this factor, I'm deciding I just limit certain topics she wants to unload on me. Besides we have such different philosophies about life, so I know what I have to say to my sister is never going to fit what she wants to hear, and I don't have the energy for that anymore, I'm discovering. So these are the kinds of boundaries I'm trying to put in place. Oh, and I slip up. But I think it has a lot to do with basically learning about the people that can push your buttons, and trying your hardest to walk in the other direction.
You can do this Bookworm. This is what some of us here call exercising the emotional muscle, and detachment. You can do it, you can do it, you can, you can.
Much Love & Light! Margeaux

Cmag - I can't really give you advice since I don't follow it either. I was SUPPOSE to put aside like time each day to read my Forgiving Book, andother time for the Regular book and then this site. I seem to prefer AC than any of the books. Gotta improve on this...My question to you...Can you brainstorm fast? How long do you need to write something for your book. Is 30 min. too short? How about 1 hr? I'd recommend the book writing maybe first thing in the morning, when your subconscious was fertile all night and you wake up more refresh than any other time. If you write on the book at night, you might be too tired at night to think properly or effectively. Later! book

My first endocrinologist had mentioned some concern about my thyroid being a low normal several years ago, but now it has gone beyond a low normal. Of all of the tests that were run when my energy crashed in 2011, no one thought about checking my thyroid. This normally develops over time and maybe it was crashing then. There is the possibility that it might take a week or so of taking this medicine before I really begin to notice a difference, plus the doctor must check in 6 weeks to see if I need more which would mean more time until I really know a difference. I sure hope this helps. I was surprised to learn that one symptom of hypothyroidism is dry skin. Well, the skin on my forearms has been dry and flaky at times so maybe that will go away also.

Tonight, I read another chapter in this book about getting things done when you are depressed. It suggested picking someone you respect to be your pretend inner drill sergeant to help motivate you to get out of bed in the am, etc., etc., so on and so forth. Sounds sort of silly and good to me, but then the next chapter really hit home. Structure. The lack of structure in my life does not tend well for my bipolar disorder and particularly when I'm cycling down into depression. With my mother in a nursing home an hour away and her past due tax crisis over with, both of our children off to college, and my being on disability as is my wife, I'm finding it tough if not impossible to structure my day, much less my week. I am doing some writing of a book that I hope to publish, but I'm not scheduling myself writing time to write each day. Other than appointments to see the doctor or therapist, my life and my wife's life lacks structure. All I can think of is to create a structure of when to get up, when to go to bed, what one thing I could do that needs doing in the house, what one thing could I do that needs doing in the yard, when could I walk the dog, when could I write (I tend to like to do that at night for some reason), and when could I go to the YMCA which I've not done now in years, plus when do I want to have breakfast, lunch and supper ready? Well, I guess that having written this, I've now answered my own question. Now how much time to allot to all of these so that I fill the day?

cmag - glad your test results were better than expected and you had a good therapy session. Getting onto thyroid meds should help your energy levels. Hope that it works!

ditto to what Sharyn said and thanks to AC for the gift card and providing the opportunty to share and learn here.

I have been away for a week, and in that time my mother now tells me she is moving out of her ALF, into a smaller place with a registered nurse who cares for 6 people. She was evaluated where she is a couple of weeks ago, and at that time she told me she was staying where she was. .I have no idea what this place is like, who runs it, or anything about it.. She says she does not know when she is moving. I wrote and asked her a few questions, including if she needed some help with the move. Normally she does not answer any questions I ask. She is in a 2 bedroom apartment she set up from scratch a couple of years ago -it didn't make much sense to me at the time. She moved from a 2 bedroom apartment to a one room unit in an ALF, ave me all her stuff to deal with, then, 6 months later, to this 2 bedroom unit in the ALF she is in now. She has maximum help available from this ALF, and has many complaints,(as always) and I have felt she needed more care, so am glad this is happening, but do not look forward to dealing with a full set of furniture etc again. She has not asked for my help so may have asked someone else to do it. I wrote her back and said Gary and I would help. Not much more I can do. I hope this really is happening, and that it is her last move.

Hi to everyone. I have been whacked by a few sessions of the fibromyalgia, managed to avoid it during the trip, though my gut acted up - could have been worse. Tired now from the travel, but it was good seeing friends I hadn't seen in 18 years, and also seeing Niagara Falls.and becoming a little more confident about travelling now.
sharyn hope you are feeling better from the infection now
book -i agree -write down what is on your mind - look at what you want to achieve in the therapy. I rinse my sinuses with a dilute hydrogen peroxide solution -start with 1 drop in 40, then up to 1 drop in 20, and then to 1 in 10 if you need to. It seems to work. I use the little saline bottles and add the peroxide. Chicken soup is great too
elderly - vent away - it helps. I always have tons to say in therapy. My last session for this time will be this week.
enrished - look after you first - save your resources for your needs as much as you can
margeaux -ginger in the chicken soup sounds great! I agree that sugar is bad for the immune system
cmag - looks like you and your wife are making headway with her condition, and that you are taking time for you - good
lildeb, austin, burned and everyone else hi, hope you are good.
Love and hugs Joan

bookworm, The only things that I would add to what has been said about therapy above is that there are cognitive behaviorist type therapists who want to give you something to read or something to do to help you with a specific issue like boundaries, co-dependency, addictions, anger management, forgiveness and so forth. They are not always all that comfortable with supportive talk therapy which is the style of other therapists who help you deal with things as you open up about them. It takes time to develop the level of trust between therapist and client to open up more and I can understand how a very private person would find therapy a challenge to work on.

Usually the therapist and client come to an agreement on how often to meet which can be modified at any time.

I had a good meeting with my therapist today and much better results on my lab work for my annual physical than expected, but was surprised to learn that my thyroid is not working hard enough. So, a new med for that problem and in 6 weeks more lab work to see if I'm at the correct dosage.

Thank you to AC for the gift card!! We appreciate all that your staff does for this site, it is a place to come to for support, answers, to share, and meet wonderful people.
Merry Christmas,
Sharyn

Hi Book~If you want to discuss anger management then stress that to him. What triggers your anger? Depression is also anger turned inward. Do you feel like your anger is always there just under the surface, easily ignited? You know that whatever you decide to work on, we are here to support you, Hugs to you my friend!!

Book~what do you want to achieve in therapy? Coping skills, boundaries,overcoming depression, overcoming low self-esteem, becoming more assertive. Talk to him about what kind of situations cause you to become depressed and unable to cope with those feelings. Do you need to work on overcoming anger from your childhood? Think about it and set some goals to discuss with him. Sometimes writing down what you want to talk about will make it more clear in your mind and easier to say. I have the opposite problem, I can talk one on one but not in groups.

therapy is that way sometimes, in a way we are often better in a support group with others like us. Personally I ran out of time in therapy as I had too much to say! My husband and I were in the same room, and by the time, I was done, they thought he needed intensive therapy lol..but this was about childrearing and letting the teenagers run my house. Not mom..they are one issue, and she is another. I have quite a moldy group to deal with let me tell you. If I could have seen ahead I would have made WAYYYY different choices, but I am one to stick it out. My girlfiriend said she would have run away a loooong time ago.

Can I ask you something? I've had my 2nd one-on-one counseling. The first time, he did most of the talking but it validated what I was going through. The 2nd time, he wanted Me to bring it up whatever is in my mind. I'm very introverted. I don't like talking about personal stuff to strangers. So, this past therapy, I was struggling to find subjects. I even cut it short because I had nothing to say. He wanted weekly, and I replied without thinking, "No! I'm having problem now. What are we going to talk about every week!!" He said - anything.

Is this how therapy is? I have to be the one to keep the conversation going? It's really stressful if this is the case. It's going to be like pulling teeth, thoughts, ideas every time we meet...I'm just wondering...

I think I am probably the person who gave you the idea for this thread! lol, the first thing I did in awhile that was truly positive and actually appreciated! Thanks for starting this thread! A place to vent and communicate!

Enriched -- as I read your venting, I couldn't help compare your mom with my father. I swear, we would pass for siblings! I laughed when you mentioned Sharyn's HUG really helped bring you down to earth and that you are just venting. Just recently, my imagination was going all over the place and another poster basically told me to quit Googling all the Bad things that can happen (I'm a half empty glass person - Not the half full.) Wow, that just immediately stopped me from imagining the worst case scenario, and brought me back to earth. I'm glad that Sharyn knew how to help you! Sometimes, we need others to help bring us into perspectives.

Hi Sharyn-- I thought i was the only one here that thinks literally! I tend to miss the subtleties. It just flies right by my head...I came home with a headache and my face hurting. I drank the water, ACV and honey mix. It cleared up the squishy noises when I press my fingers on my face. So, it must be draining my sinus.
Cmag – I’m glad that you started this thread. The first time I came upon, I couldn't believe there was a topic on dysfunction.
kdflower – I’m glad that you’re learning about boundaries. I need to start looking into that too. So, when I read about you, godsgirl, Margeaux and everyone here learning to set boundaries, I feel like one of those students who comes to class without doing her homework! It’s on my to-do list. I'm glad you answered that question -who do you see first – the geriatrics doc or the neurologist. Neurologist.
godsgirl – Congrats! for a successful transfer of your mother from home to the retirement community. I like to read success stories like this.
Margeaux – from what I’m reading, you are definitely growing as a person - your own person. You're slowly but surely learning to be You and not what your mom or sister wants of you. My problem is that I try to keep the peace among family. So I rarely rock the boat, and keep my anger/resentment inside. But, as I read your comments, I can see you are growing stronger as a person. Keep up the good work!
Burned – you remind me of the energizer bunny. You just keep going and going and going -despite obstacles being thrown your way from every directions. Please continue to keep us updated.

Book~Thank you, I will give it a try. Went to work today but my energy level is going down fast, didn't sleep well last night. Thank you again!!

Thanks, Margeaux, I took some "man cave" time last night!

Sharyn, when I had my MRI results just recently, I was diagnosed with right upper frontal sinus infection. Doc did not prescribe antibiotics. I wondered why and so came home and Googled it. Most causes of sinus infection does not go away at all with antiobiotics. So, because I've been waking up, all day and going to sleep with really bad headaches (now knowing there's no tumor in my brain), I Googled home remedies for sinus infections.

This is what I found - Both is important to do:
1. Drink warm 8 oz of water with 2 TBS of apple cider vinegar and 1 TBS of honey.
= Just to let you know, I can't stand drinking water. This concoction tasted Good! I drank it in the evening, I can feel my sinus draining mostly from inside. I did have to blow my nose a few times. I made a new batch the next morning, put it in an empty bottled water container and took it to work to sip throughout the day. Works with the draining. This Drains Your Sinus.

2. Nasal Wash
= I can't find a neti pot here on island. I never did get around to ordering some online. This wash will Clean the Inside of your nasal. #1 drained it, #2 cleans it.
= Important - when using the home remedy wash (to cut back the expense), use Distilled Water! Seems some people did not and ended up with serious infections on the head or brain. I think 2 people died. Distilled Water, very important!!!

Oh, I still have my right side infection. Never finished the draining job with the flushing of it. You just reminded me to order the neti pot.

Hi Everyone, sorry for being missing in action for several weeks. I had a bit of a problem a few weeks ago over comments I made - which by the way I did NOT regret saying. I will never ever regret telling a fellow abused caregiver on different ways to seek help if she ever reaches the stage of wanting to leave the current situation. Needless to say, some words were said to me that really hurt me and brought up so much self-doubts. I remembered thinking that I made sooo many baby steps to reach where I was and those comments made a gigantic leap Backward. It took me 1 hour to comment on one person's Wall Post - because I typed, erased, typed, erased...it was awful....although I had support from the long-timers here, it was the newbies (like myself) to help me finally realize what the oldtimers were trying to tell me. I knew what I needed to do in order to come back to AC and to comment freely with no more self doubts. As a child, I had no say when I was abused. I'm not a child now. I'm an adult and I can confront and defend myself. And I did just that - in a very neutral way (no names mentioned). When I hit that SUBMIT button, I felt all the anger, resentment and stress leave my body. Wow!

Just yesterday, I have Finally went through my Wall Post thanking every person who posted encouragements. Today, after work, I will backtrack to where I last left off here and catch up with everyone's current life. I'm not 100 percent back to normal and I don't think I ever will. But, atleast I'm back to free flowing writing - no more type, erase, type, erase (ugh!! It just drove me crazy doing that!!!)

Margeaux~I am feeling better, thank you. I will look up the nasal washes, I have heard of them but never tried it. I did make some chicken noodle soup, the ginger added does sound yummy!! My bakery/deli manager has chronic sinus infections. She has had surgery twice with no change. She has been taking an antibiotic since July. Using central heat really dries out my sinuses so we keep the thermostat at 62 during the night and I leave the bedroom window cracked open. Maybe a cool mist humidifier would help. I will try the chicken soup/ginger tomorrow when I'm off again, thanks for the info. I hope all is well with you and your mother, Hugs to you!

Sharynmarie,
How are you feeling? I suffer a lot from sinus problems.
I do nasal washes, you can look it up on internet how to do them, and believe me they help. What I do also is I make chicken soup w/fresh ginger, even the dried version works. There's something to this combination that decongests very effectively and it tastes great. I hope you feel better, and yes you probably didn't feel too presentable amidst the cookies and cakes.Oh, and sugar seems to exacerbate the sinus condition, probably also because it wrecks the immune system. O.K., feel better and let your mom lose whatever articles she's losing at the moment. if it really isn't major. Much Love, Margeaux

Cmagnum,
I read the post about you and your wife's update. Well I'm very happy for you things went well with the surgery. Ginger is very good for nausea. You can buy the fresh one, cut the skin off a small piece and wash it. One can chew on it. I've tried it, and it works for the queasy stomach feeling. If she doesn't like it that way, then you can do same,, only make in a tea. O.K., my man, do get some rest, man cave time! The two of you are in my thoughts, Much Love, Margeaux

Sharyn Marie, it has been a very long journey since August when my wife injured this knee plus tore a ligament in that left foot. I went out back to my "man cave" for a while tonight. I'm making progress in reading through the book, Get It Done When You're Depressed" It has some good ideas. I've gotten some things done today that I chose to do instead of waiting to fell like doing and the end result felt good. I do feel good that I make some positive contributions to help people on this site. And I appreciate the support I get when I need it. Love, Prayers, and Hugs to all.

Dear Sharyn Marie…
Thank you for the hug y más—I needed it far more than I realized & am now just bawling/releasing. You have so lovingly told me what I needed to hear [be reminded of…] re: detachment & boundaries. Re: finances, my mother is struggling significantly and will only share her [dire] needs after prolonged probing which complicates matters greatly. My brother [the doctor] literally makes millions & could make my mother perfectly comfortable BUT is TIGHT as the day is long. My [alcoholic] deceased father's estate could also be dispensed in my mother's favor [even though they were divorced] but the aforementioned 'tight' brother/executor refuses to do so—even after YEARS of requesting such. I strongly suspect his wife is also behind this [another discussion!]. What is so very, VERY sad here is that my mother sacrificed immensely when my parents divorced & DESERVES differently. When I asked my brother [super nicely] for a financial report of the estate [AFTER 18 YEARS w/NO REPORT WHICH IS ILLEGAL!!!!] in May, which also bears my name, I understand he was soooooooooo furious that he refused to allow me to see my nephews [that I've NOT SEEN SINCE!!!] or deliver his father's day gift—thus 'this' estrangement.
So, I am going to tap into my retirement & give my mother a chunk as soon as I possibly can…as well as move out, but probably not realistically until summer after a certification course I'm planning on taking next semester. OY!!!! I am going to send my résumé/cv to a local real estate agent in hopes of securing a guest house/garage appointment for respite or a cheap studio so I create some art & process this stuff! [I'm primarily a studio/fine artist and über sensitive to begin with!] but, I'm having a really difficult time spending the $$ that way—I need [expensive] dental work, a new [for me] car & must pay the estate attorney. I will contact a counselor w/o fail this week and/or find a new Al-Anon group. There MUST be light somewhere @ the end of this tunnel!
Thank you ALL for your support—I'm feelin' the love!

Hi everyone!!

I haven't posted in a while, been sick with bronchitis/sinus infection. I did work yesterday but I called off today because I am still coughing a lot and that does not make good customer service in a bakery/deli, Lol!!

Cmag~I am happy to hear your wife is doing well after the surgery and walking, exercising. I hope you get some time for yourself as it has been a long haul for both of you. It sounds like you have awesome neighbors that are looking out for you. Take it easy and things will get better soon!

Enriched~Hugs to you dear friend. You are in a tough situation to say the least. When you were going to Al Anon, did you learn about "detaching with love" and setting boundaries? These two things are vital when dealing with dysfunctional families and addictions. You must accept that you are powerless over your mother's alcoholism and cannot change it...only your mother can choose to make those changes. Probably the only way you can find out if your mother's behavior in the evenings is due to dementia or the alcohol would be thru a medical exam or if she quit drinking and the problem still exists. Based on what you have already written, she would refuse to have a medical exam. So what do you do....you put your life and mental health first. Develop a life of your own that includes setting boundaries and detachment from your mother. Preferably live in a separate home. How old is your mother, is she receiving SS, medicare or are you supporting her? It sounds like your mother has her own income from what you have written. The bottom line is that you cannot save your mother or control her behavior but you can change your life. My heart goes out to you and I hope we hear more from you on this thread!

Save urself and called adult protective services obviously she is not making sound decisions and needs place in a nursing home and u should not feel guilty about doing all of that...some ppl cannot escape their vices but my parents have but if ur getting the villainy crap when ur doing a good deed then ur done..ur energy is sapped and ur life and strength is sapped...do something to save urself and to distance urself to once a wk visit. if you have mpoa or poa get it reinforced with the doctors and then do what is necessary...i feel for u and u are dying to live a life free and in the end all the issues u are facing will come back in other ways..you done what u could...tho it may hurt do it the right thing.

I am currently in my mother's house so I see FAR more than my non-participative siblings [bro an MD!!!! sis a bi-polar sister w/explosive mania—both out of town].
I am greatly concerned about whether my mother's 'after 5' behavior is purely from the alcohol or God-forbid, dementia [this is the very first time for me to 'say' this out loud so-to-speak]. I am noticing increasing memory loss and am stressed beyond words. I have participated in Al-Anon for years & need to re-visit [it killed my father so I have seen how awful this addiction truly is—both parents for my entire life] and must add that am estranged from my siblings who are in denial & like to feel I am here taking advantage of my mother because it is so much more convenient for them in terms of NOT DEALING w/ THE ISSUES!!!! I am the handyman, honey-doer, lunch date, ceiling fan cleaner, chef to the stars, safety officer, crime watch captain etc…
Two nights ago my mother & I argued over an issue re: her forgetfulness and she was inebriated—I must add, it was more like me pleading for a lucid response which I know I cannot get from her in the evening but is the only time we have to talk since I work full time [w/handicapped adults]. I asked why she does not get her hearing checked [the tv is BLASTING] & she blurted/screamed that she is taking care of/worried about her eyes first [macular degeneration & retinol folding] which entails finances. I have asked her repeatedly to please let me know when she needs additional $$ for the Dr. appt's & rx's BUT SHE WILL NOT DISCUSS IT & chooses to drink it away every night making physical matter much worse than they already are. Please note that I do pay rent & for groceries & my finances are limited as well. I have approached my siblings MANY times but my mother makes me out to be 'dramatic' and again, polarizes my siblings, allowing them to remain [inactive] as they are as well as target me. I have tried EVERY approach I can think of & have even asked my mother to participate in mobile crisis counseling w/me which she vehemently refuses. I am interviewing for a second job next week but come home so exhausted from work that I often go to bed before 9 pm, also to avoid witnessing the drinking. I am perfectly miserable in this house & need to move on but am TERRIFIED that when I am not here to turn off burners or GAS that has been on all day or all night after I go to bed she will blow this place up and/or the neighbors—not to mention her falling inebriated in the nightly tub w/her glass container cocktail! To top things off, she told me the night we were having our 'heated' discussion—out of the blue—that if I lost 20 to 30 lbs. I would extend my life span—this was NOT a supportive remark, but rather hateful & biting. I have been very honest w/her about my deep upset & frustration about my [early] post-menopausal weight gain and just recently had my thyroid tested—next is hormones [hmm stress-related???]. It was so hateful & I am so very deeply hurt by this that we are not speaking [again]. She drove to her twin's home 50 miles away [just moved that FAR AWAY!!!] where she will spend the weekend & drink heavily w/her! My aunt also finds it most convenient to villainize me, as does her husband—sick, sick, sick dynamics & DENIAL. I must add that the binding force might well be that I am the ONLY family member that participates in Al-Anon which rattles them ALL to no end! Perfect alcoholic dysfunction!
So, do I hoard my $$ so that I can move out [while feeling horrifically guilty for not turning over all but what I use for my personal bills]? Do I rent a small apt. nearby for respite—again feeling guilty about not handing this $$ to her? I am @ my wit's end & the new 'hateful' behavior is more than I can put up with on top of everything else!
I am a very intelligent, well-educated individual but I also know that I suffer w/what I call Wonder Woman Syndrome. How do I prepare myself for 'that call' if/when I move out?
I have responded to so very many topics and am so very resourceful. I guess the proximity, history & emotions involved render me ineffective when it comes to my own mother. I am so isolated, have zero social life nor the energy for one & feel like I am 'whining' and/or not 'something' enough [self esteem has taken a huge hit!]. I will be signing up for counseling this week w/o fail!
The amazing people involved in this forum have offered such loving, supportive input, so in anticipation—THANK YOU.
If my mother [siblings/family] would just say thank you, I'm sorry, nice job ONCE IN A WHILE…or once.