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Margeoux yourstory about your fathers lemon tree is so sad. How awful for you.  Thanks fortune links to the and lighthouse sites.  The discussion of secrets that put others at risk is ateme in my dysfunctional family too.
Sharynmarie, I do think that gender norms are a big part of the issue in the way that the men in my family are handling this situation.  For instance when's was at my parents house my father wastrying to help her by becoming the expert on the oxygen tanks.  I let him enter the caretaking through that; at least its a start. And he was outside the house working on their backyard.  He was trying to find objective or technical things and leaving the caretaking to me out of a sense that it is women's work.  Now he is going to have to change because my mother just can't do all the cooking and cleaning anymore.
Karlthesavage, yep, if someone can't be a help then facing what you are facing, the boot and boundaries have to be the survival option.
Joan, I think you do well to actively practice detachment to be able to survive the digs and the way that you are being treated.  The discussion of "viable seeds" is symbolic.  Where can growth and change be nurtured and where is the dysfunction so rooted as to stifle and transformation.
Burned,I hope that your job comes through to get you time out of the house.  This week my teaching job started up again; today I felt so happy not to think of the situation with my mother for several hours.
Lildeb, I know, when he started this mini lecture I felt super annoyed.  I did not want to be rude or disrespectful but he was just being ridiculous.  At that moment of holding my tongue for fear of lashing out, the dysfunction was so clear but making the circumscribed observation was the best I could do to stay true to myself in the crazy situation. Caregiver1963,, I hear what you are saying about finding the strength to deal with the family dysfunction, to speak up or defend yourself is challenging  in the moment.
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sharynmarie, I would start with the family doctor, and go from there....here in Canada we have Community Access, a local non-profit agency that can help you get lined up with necessary services...you might be able to get a temporary care nurse to step in and help you get the referral you need without going through all of the house stuff....I would also be taking steps at this point to put in place medical power of attorney for you over your mother's medical affairs so you can make the decisions she may no longer be able to make
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well the god's were smiling down on me today...as I was going to take my mother to her doctor's appointment, my back tire blew out....when I phoned to tell her I couldnt make it, her only response it, okay so when are you ready and when will you get here, we can take a taxi...well much to my surprise I firmly told her I cannot afford to miss work, and since she is in well health these days she was going to have to phone and reschedule...her only concern was ticking the doctor off and she showed no concern as to whether I was okay or not....I got the same old guilt trips but I must admit I seem to have gained the ability to deflect that now...in the meantime my sister and her daughter were targeting me again and trying to start a fight...when they couldn't get my attention, my niece called our mother and started wailing over the phone I hate her, with my mother taking their side insisting I should call her because the poor dear was in a terrible state...the "state" was a put on act so now every conversation about my family must center around their family, so I am going on vacation until our mother snaps out of it....I must admit the support here is helping me immensely...thank you everyone because some not feeling like I am totally alone in all this helps me find the backbone I need to deal with it
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I am trying to get information on how to get my mother evaluated by a neurologist. I know we have discussed some of this before. If I call APS with they take over control of her finances and house that is in a living trust or will they only evaluate her mental condition?
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For information regarding self harm/suicide check out National Suicide Hotline 1-800-SUICIDE 1-800-784-2433. Invaluable information and help is available to all who are struggling with these issues.
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Rose, I know we r suppose to honor r parents however, Rose, I would had gave my dad a piece of my tongue about that business n free-time crap! Good for u for asking him why he isn't looking for a job. ; ) I am glad to hear at least your brother is going to help out with the air-condition.

Burned, haven't anything about home-care cut-out but they have done stupid stuff before like cutting education cost. As for siblings, they can be a pain in the ass n have no clue what really goes on behind close doors. dumb asses! Tell her get her butt here an see if she can do better. Sibs, ah!
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Happy Monday to everyone!!

Yes exercise that emotional muscle the more you do it the easier it becomes!! Thank you Margeaux~it is difficult to watch someone decline mentally and you can't help them due to the Law or their refusal to let you help.

Joan~I worked in seed production/saving with tomatoes for many years, anything with plants I love, also have A.A. in plant science ( doesn't make me an expert but I have a little knowledge about it).

karlthesavage~Thank you for sharing the info on the on line course. The more we understand, the better we can help!!

Enjoy the week, tomorrow will cool into the 80's YAY!!! Delta breezes are a wonderful thing here in the summer.
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Good Morning Emjo,

Yes my dad was quite a gardener.
I hope to plant the seeds someday, but right now the space I live in is too small.

I think my sister is a narcissist also! I haven't been at all in touch with her since over a week ago. But you see w/her, last year when she really needed a soundboard, (me) to listen to all of the crazy things our aunt was doing before she passed, she was very in touch w/me. I foolishly at times thought that maybe this was going to be the event that brought us somewhat together. But the aunt has now been deceased 7 mos. In that 7 mos., the need for contact like last year went from a 10 to about a 3. So you see, it is not what i would call a relationship of authenticity, only of service.

This must feel strange to you, that your sister is trying to initiate a relationship w/you, also.

So this Thursday is the family history get together. I still have yet to inform my sister that Dee and I w/be going on our own. I'm looking forward to that meeting.
I'm going to exercise the emotional muscle this week, big time!

Well Emjo, I trust you're going to do the same.
Much Love, Margeaux
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Sharynmarie,

I'm sorry about you having a bad day. Yes, it is difficult to see a loved one becoming more confused on account of the ALZ.

I remember before mom was actually diagnosed, or at least that we her children knew about the diagnosis on one visit, I witnessed very confused behavior by mom.
Since she and my aunt, at that time were living together, (before my sister moved in), I'd noticed that their phone message system seemed to have been disconnected. So I tried to reconnect it, as I felt it was important this be working.
I tried to instruct my mom, (poor thing) about how to listen to the messages, and noticed her becoming very frustrated. Meanwhile, she was doing everything in her power to act as if she knew what she was doing. I didn't know at that time, the narcissist-sister of hers & my mom had some kind of a secret conspiracy going on between the two of them. Mom had already been diagnosed by the doc for ALZ, & was on meds. I however didn't discover THIS fact, until about 7 mos. later! So it was a secret between she and her sister.
So for some time while I was adapting to the fact about the ALZ, I felt so bad, even guilty about that day I took my mother through all of this.

Anyway, I remember that you were having a hard time having her consent to seeing, was it the neurologist? Has that happened yet? It might help you, in the sense that some of her affairs, especially finances would have to be taken care of by someone who can handle them.

I definitely know from mother's situation, the denial here definitely was at work.
I just didn't like the way it happened, that the narcissist aunt kept something like that a secret. Mom was on meds, and was at the time was still driving around a bit. You see, her sister could not drive anymore, so how do you like that.
My aunt was willing to endanger both of them by keeping their secret, and they thought it was going to ensure their independence. All I can say is, they had some biig guardian angels looking out after them.

Well I hope you can resolve some of this, so that at least you can be able to relate to your situation in a different and productive way for yourself. You are in my thoughts, Sharynmarie. Love and plenty of Light! Margeaux
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She was only negative because her brother my husband; the only family they have left to each other didn't like him giving me BS while I was on the phone. I was informed that alz and dementia does run in the family contrary to popular belief by my hubby. Then he did a stupid thing last night and messed with a live wire when I have a friend here who can do it. I am also trying to get a second job and keeping my friends with me if possible by the landlord since hubby won't go to the local daycare center here in town. I need someone to stop him from doing stupid stuff while I am working a second job but that is going to be a hit and a miss at the same time unless my Az id turns up outta the blue. I do not talk to my sister, because I have to make time for her stuff and yet we both lost the same grandparent last yr and she assumes I am holding a grudge against her so I cannot talk to her. I also have to find a way to get money to activate a prepay phone or go back to using my contract phone. Once I get this job that lets me outta the house ever so often during the day I think most of my stress will calm down and I do not have to listen to my husband throw guilt trips on me lol. Just tired of being stressed ....need room to breathe:)
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Thank sharyn - I will gather up pine cones and see if I can get some viable seeds.

Warm today -nearly 90., and lots of sun :)
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Joan~Collect pine seeds from fallen cones gently shaking to remove the seeds. It will take many to get viable seeds. To determine if the seeds are viable place them in water. The seeds that float or stay suspended in the water are not viable. Store in an air tight container. Generally they are planted after the first of the year indoors. Start the seeds indoors, placing them in individual pots with well-drained potting soil. Push each seed just beneath the soil surface, making sure that it’s in a vertical position with the pointy end facing downward. Place the pots in a sunny window and water thoroughly. Keep the seeds moist and wait, as germination can take months, but should occur by March or April.

Once the seedlings have reached between six inches to a foot tall, they can be transplanted outdoors.
Hope this helps. Enjoy the weekend!!
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Hi Margeaux - Your dad was quite a gardener! aaaargh, the lemon trees got chopped down!!! Are you going to plant some lemon seeds -maybe grow a small on for the house? Gordie's tree is still alive. I will gather some of the pine cones and keep them. I think growing from seed isn't easy, but might be worth trying.
I like the term "reeling you in" That is how I feel. They set you up and then the digs start. I have to stay detached, and also distant in every way. Sounds to me like your sister is narcissistic it is all about her. Infection is clearing -the trick is to catch it sooner. Learning about narcissism and BPD has helped me a lot.
rose - how are you doing -I understand your anger at siblings for not helping. I have gone past that, and now am glad my sister is not involved as it only means trouble and a chance for her to "get at" me.
sharyn - hope your are having a stress freer weekend - re sis - boundaries, boundaries, boundaries!
Hi karithesavage - interesting name - I agree entirely - tell anyone who interfers to go home - you need help not interference. I tried Pam Hiti's site but it didn't work, but got the video on another site. It helps so much to have professionals support our gut instincts. come back and vent any time you like
bw - hope you reel them in and get help. I don't knnow how you do what you do. Look after yourself!
Kimbee -where are you????
austin - take care
cmag -thanks again for starting this thread - lots of us come from seriously dysfunctional families. Hope you are doing well.
everyone - let us know how you are and enjoy the remaining days of summer - here fall is coming all too soon ((((((((((((hugs))))))))))))
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try to get caught up here -the infection took more out of me tha I thought
bw- thank you for that suggestion When I told Gordie's dad he brightened up. Both he and gary can carve so we would keep part of the tree if it dies. It looks fine now - time will tell
hi rose - glad you joined us - you have a lot on your plate with both parents and all the issues. Therapy helps -you are not alone. Antidepressants can help too. Glad you reralize about taking care of you - it is so important when faced with all the emotions and responsibilites you are
sharyn -funny about Marcia, Marcia, Marcia and the Brady Bunch - finallly I am feeling better - I thik thew tree will survive. Time will tell.I don't know how to grow a pine tree from seeds but might be worth trying when we moveSorry your mum is overwhelmed - I am waiting for that to happen to mother too - so far she manages everything but may not one day.Hope you had a good day
thanks Kim -I will ask G about grafting.had't thought of that - I know his grandfather and possibly father grafted some apple trees
lildeb - hope you are havig a decent weekend - respite is certainly needed for at home caregivers
hi austin- helpful as always
burned sorry your sil was negative - no one needs that
going to post this now so i don't lose it and finish later(((((hugs to all))))))
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karlthesavage, thanks on the info about the online course. I noted it quickly on my desktop notepad b4 AC discovers it and deletes it! And welcome to AC (agingcare)!! We all appreciate info from others who found it helpful for them...A lot of people here are having those problems. Mine is the opposite...how to Reel them IN to help physically. Thanks!!
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My mom and I are trying to care for her mother, who has alzheimer's dementia. Mom's three sisters are no where to be found, until it suits their needs. We were really having a lot of behavioral issue with grandma, every time one of my aunts came into the picture, grandma really acted out after they left. Then we found a great course online at http://dementiacaregiver.org. Dr. Pam gives the best advice and sshe is so down to earth. My mom and I have watched this course now 3 times, and each time we gain something new. We really like the discussion about learning to give family members that cause problems 'the boot'! And now, we have Dr. Pam to use as our excuse for telling the aunts to GO HOME! Anyway, thanks for letting me vent!
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u565425 ~I haven't responded to your most recent post because I support what Margeaux, emjo, and bookworm said to you. You still have not clarified anything on this thread so "everyone" could help you.
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Roseisabelle~It is frustrating when your siblings won't help. It is typical of the men in families to not help with ailing parents. Very similar to husbands that won't help with raising children other than financial support. I can't help but thing it is largely to the fact that men just don't know how to nurture in that area of relationships. I'm not excusing their behavior by any means but sometimes you just have to let go and detach from the sibling. I hope your brother gets the paperwork filed to remove the lien against your parents house. Take deep breaths!
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Good Morning Emjo,

I'm really sorry about what the city did to Gordie's tree.
I can also understand your attachment to it, since he brought it home at such a young age.

My dad used to be a very good hobbyist gardener. His garden was beautifull
His specialty was grafting trees. Well he'd planted this lemon tree, which produced these cherry tomato sized lemons, which were delicious. After he passed this tree was constantly producing the lemons, and my mom who was not yet in the ALZ condition she is today had someone chop it down. I could not believe she would do that. But then again, for the insensitivity she's show over the years, I could. It made me very sad and very mad at her. Possibly you could, as Shaynmarie suggested save some of the needles, or another part of the tree and re-plant it.
I have some seeds from those lemons.

So your sister is trying to connect with you? Isn't it interesting when our sisters try to connect with us, after they've created so much havoc? My sister does this by inviting me for lunch, I call it trying to reel me in. She is financially more secure than I am. So sometimes she'll do the invitation, picking up the tab, (which isn't real often), as I don't feel comfortable with this. But then I realize that, as she did a couple days later, when we went w/mom. She'll mention a bit of a dig comment to me, as when I said, I'd be out to visit mom soon, and she said "O.K" It was the tone in her voice as if saying, yeah sure. This totally turns me off. Truth be told, I really feel that part of she taking mother this next week to the family get together is to do show and tell for herself in front of our cousins. I think my sister takes her view of herself in the mother role way too seriously, but it's really clingy, and to me her motives many times are about the control and co-dependency. It's funny too, because while we were growing up, my sister did not at all like our mom, and criticized, still does every now and again for the dysfunction. I got along better w/mom. I however knew something wasn't right, and once I could claim some kind of independence from all of that, I did. I'm really the only one in the family unit who has ventured away from the family.
Well, now I'm going to use a phrase my cousin used to say, "they lay their tender trap down," so what we must be cautious of is not to get caught up in it; the emotional detachment.

I looked at the lighthouse.com, and the DONM websites.
The lighthouse web has great explanations. I did read some things from DONM,
WOW! They are both great websites! I want to learn more about the narcissism, because I'm beginning to get the feeling my sister may have some of this also.

Well, I'm happy that your mom is quiet for now. Hope your infection clears up.
Much Love, Margeaux
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Margeoux - ha jan Brady! What is the equivalent of jan but instead of Marcia Marcia marcia the center is a crazy old narcissistic father? Kimbee and Joan, the suggestion to graft one or more new trees is really beautiful. 1234austin, thanks for your suggestion about an elder attorney. I would have to pay for it of course. Sharynmarie personality disorder versus alzheimers - how hard for her family members. I second lildebs suggestion that respite care and other forms of caregiver assistance be more of a priority. I wonder where the us sits in relation to other countries when it comes to resources for elder care. Its a political issue-voucher voucher voucher (rhymes with Marcia Marcia Marcia). Burned, praying for peace of mind seems like a very good idea.
At the doctors appointment We learned that my mom has pulmonary hypertension as well as pulmonary fibrosis. This means more doctors appointments but also the hope that my mom can get some treatment for symptoms. My brother who lives here offered to go in on their air conditioner, which is movement. It was good that I went home because my brothers wife came the next day and saw how sick my mother is now. My father gave me a lecture about how I need to start a business in my free time and I felt so angry at him for being so insensitive and stupid. I asked him why he wasn't doing so (or getting a job) since he and my mother may have to move due to lack of funds. I am so angry at him that Whenheis speaking I feel a tightening in my chest and forehead and I am not breathing right.
-Rose
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I wish I had more sound bites to rattle off but I do not and does anyone know for sure they are trying to cut home care outta the picture....then prez and congress etc is the biggest dysfunctional family I have ever saw and tho I use to be a voter so darn glad I do not mess with charade anymore....btw my sil called to check on my hubby her brother and I got chewed out for it. I mean I have let shit go but she is the only person that gives a damn and he can't let things go...I mean just tired of the negativity and discontent in his family. I am praying for sound piece of mind....peace i mean as in silence as in leave me alone type deal...I am glad were all growing thru the garbage that is in our lives and learning to accept to the point of saying I do not give a fuck...it keeps the bad vibes out...wishing ya all nice wknd.
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Sharynmaire, I love that movie n yes, Scarlett O'hara was a classic. Now, I am going to have to dig in the closet for that tape. As for your sister, u have tried to be open n helpful n if she is not willing to meet u half the way then u need to move forward for its not worth getting sick over when u get upset n angry. I hope u two have a great family vacation in Idaho with your daughter n sil. It may be snowing their by October, br.... Have fun...; )

Rlamborn, sorry u r not getting any help or support from family members n that seems to be a lot from what I am reading. However, on my mil side we cannot trust some of her kin folks n she only had one son n he tries sometimes for the rest is on me. On the otherhand, we have some things in common for we both live in GA I have felt like the perosn that is living in prison in r house at least until I was able to get some help from Alz.org in my local area. I think the governement should really offer more resources for people who are caregivers to have some sort of 'respite break.' That way, the person that is ill can live longer, healthier and happier while at home n the caregiver would be less stressful n in better health. That would take a huge chunk out of $ from the Medicade for it would prevent those that r ill to be in the Nh sooner than needed or at least I guess. Well, I got off topic. woopsie!

Margeaux, 1,000 n climbing for what in the world is a 'functional family.' Ha! lol. Drive safely n try to relax as much as possible.

Austin, how r you doing today?
Anyone I have not mention your name, I have not forgotten about y'all n I hope everyone is able to have some sort of peaceful weekend as much as possible.
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Today has been a bad day for my mother. She is overwhelmed with mail she has received regarding her LTHC, she received new checks for the new checking account she opened but now doesn't remember closing the original and opening another one. She is very confused today about everything. Alzheimer's is such a cruel disease and yes I feel pain and so much compassion for her but at a loss of what I can do to help her when she won't let us. She is blaming the bank for closing out her original account but refuses to go to the bank with me to discuss it. Personality disorder vs. Alzheimer's. I wish I could console her fears, give her a hug but she would only push me away. I am going to go paint and take my frustrations out on the wall. Hoping everyone has a great week end and enjoy the time with your loved ones♥!
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Roseisbella welcome aboard -I am so sorry for your families' dysfunction -you are right to feel so upset-it seems to be a pattern of our elders not planning for their old age-I do not know if youand they could get an Elder Lawyer involved-but if it is possible it would be a help for your parents to get them started on solving their problems-your brothers do not seem to want to be a part of the family at this point so you may have to write them off as for providing any assistance-keep us posted.
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Hi all, erands to day, while my helper here; totally wiped me out. I am slowly inching along. Joan: I luv the ideas for Gordie's tree. There is a propagation technique (grafting) that would also enable you to restart your dear son's tree from the existing tree. I'll look for a good website for proper directions and let you know in the next day or two. If the tree doesn't survive, you'll have another. I'm sorry it was damaged, so not fair. In the meantime fertilize it at HALF rate with Espoma Holly Tone-asap-before it really gets colder there. if no rain, water in well. Luv u guys, kimbee
Cation
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Joan~Losing the tree is understandably an emotional loss for you. Maybe you could save some of the pine seeds and try growing an offspring or two. I hope you are feeling better soon. Take care♥!
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Margeaux~Thank you for the advice about being cautious. I agree we cannot be the everything for others. I guess I put too much of myself into the relationship (something I have always done). I am setting boundaries with her. On the lighter side, it sounds like you, Joan, and me are in the Jan Brady (Brady Bunch) situation of where it is always about Marcia, Marcia, Marica, LOL! Take care and have fun at the meeting♥!
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Hi all,

It so helps me to see this thread and to read some of the stories here. The themes of narcissistic peronalities using others for their own gratification, family members not communicating, taking advantage of each others money and time, and individuals having to make difficult decisions about their responses to these dynamics are helping me to tryandsee my own situation more clearly.

If I step back and see it, there are two sets of issues: financial and medical.

On the financial side of the dysfunction, my parents didn't plan for retirement, and my father has a long history of working for himself and not providing much economic security for the family. Now theirbasic housing costs total $1500 month and their social security payments are $2000, with no savings. It's terrible to see this. I have finally talked sense into my mother and am proceeding with housing applications to HUD and section 8. My father is resisting these efforts, which brings out so much anger in me. At the same time, a credit card company has put a lein on their home due to identity theft committed against my younger 30 yr old brother, who is on their mortgage. He is procrastinating filing the necessary paperwork with the lawyer to have the lien removed. I am so angry with him for his unresponsive ness to my emails on this subject. He actually lied to my parents and told them that the affidavit was filed but it is not.

On the medical side, my mom has pulmonary fibrosis. She just got out of the hospital where she had a lung biopsy. We will be fortunate if she is a candidate for a lung transplant; otherwise it will be a spiral into decline. I am experiencing significant grieving over her condition. I took care of her for a few days when she got home from the biopsy because she was throwing up and experiencing nausea. We got that under control and then I left. I've been back at my apartment feeling shell shocked from seeing her so ill. I drove the 2 1/2 hours back home and tonight will drive back to take her to the surgeons appointment tomorrow morning? Not until I get my hair done at 7 pm tonight though.

I feel so angry at all the men in my family. Towards my father for being unwilling to work and for not planning and for resisting the move to senior housing; toward my youngest brother for not proactively getting the lien removed; toward my brother who lives in the same town for being so uninvolved and leaving everything for me to do.

I have to go now - I have to go to therapy (no kidding huh). My appointment for meds is later this month. I think they will help with the depression and maybe with figuring out how to live healthier.

Thanks for reading. It makes a difference to be able to write about it.

Rose
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Emjo, it sounds like the tree that symbolizes Gordie is also having health problems. When I went to Hawaii due to a gynecological cancer scare (turned out benign), I was so relieved. But prior to the surgery, I went to a radiology building where every visitors chose a rose from a vase when the checked out. I took that rose with me. When it was time to fly back home, I took a few petals to symbolize that trip as NOT having cancer. (We have a very high rate of cancer here.)

I was wondering, if maybe you can do the same with the tree? Take a thick branch and find a person who carves and whittle it into a simple object? Or get an unusual branch and just turn it into an unusual decor in the corner of your room or bedroom or wherever? If the tree has leaves, perhaps you can press it? (I pressed my petal and put it in my album.)

This way, you will have a PART of that tree of Gordie's...Just a thought!
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U565425, it's been a while since I last read your post in June...which I admitted to you was way over my head. I noticed that you gave DETAILS in your Hugs to certain people. Unfortunately, when you do that, only that person sees it - not us, the Forum.

So, when Emjo or Margeaux ask for more details, please still post it HERE on this Discussion Dysfunction for everyone to see. This way MORE people sees the situation and might be able to comment other than Emjo or Margeaux.

I think, too, this is where the frustration is coming from. You DID give details, but it was done privately to ONE person, and no one else can see it. So it feels like no one is helping you.

Can you re-state the current situation to update everyone? ... :)
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