Can changes my Dad made to his estate plan be invalidated if it's proven he was mentally ill?

dadwasNPD: One clarification to my original response to your post:

Where I stated that the estate attorney allowed my father to split the trust, I meant to say that she allowed him to write me out of his part of the trust (the survivor's trust) and name a trustee other than me when he split the trust into the decedent's and survivor's trusts.

Parmstegma: I agree with your statement about someone with NPD. My father was in his early 90s when he changed my parents' estate plan. So, it was encumbent on his estate attorney, knowing his advanced age, to test his competence to make sure that it hadn't changed in the 7 or so years since she had last seen him to amend my parents' estate plan. And, things had drastically changed in that 7 years in terms of his mental status (i.e., from bad to worse). If the test had been a little more than rudimentary, she would have seen that he was mentally impaired and that his decision-making and executive functioning skills were quite impaired. But, he was very able to hide these things from those outside the family. It was family members, close friends, and associates who spent any length of time with him who very readily saw these impairments in him . But, in the end, it was his money and he did with it what he pleased. But, breaching his fiduciary responsibility to my mother and then to me as the heir to her estate violated the terms of my parents' estate plan and, specifically, her part of the estate (i.e., the decedent's trust) of which I was the named heir/beneficiary. In fact, there appears to be evidence of not only very irresponsible behavior on the part of his financial advisor, but also some exploitation on her part and even on the part of his CPA (a corrupt, sleazeball). I suspect that if I had wanted to pursue this exploitation angle, on the basis of what was discovered as going on in my mother's trust and her trust accounts, I could have reported the financial advisor and possibly had her lose her financial advisor's license. But, I just wanted to move on from this nightmare, not expend anymore mental energy or financial resources to it, and to just forget that I ever had a father or that he was ever in my life. In fact, I'll very likely destroy all pictures of him so I have no traces of ever having known him. I feel fortunate that, in proving the hanky panky that went on in the estate plan, I came out ahead both on the financial and tangible items end, so have moved on. But as you said, dealing with an NPD person is annoying at the very least. But, it can also be fraught with all sorts of legal ramifications, especially when the NPD person acts like you're victimizing them (when they're actually the one victimizing others) and people believe them and fall for their BS hook, line, and sinker.

dadwasNPD: Continuing with my other post: Some questions relative to your situation (based on my own situation):

1. Did your father change his trust and write you out or is it that the family members are doing underhanded things and that you're still named in the trust as the beneficiary/heir to that 90K and other things? And, if your father changed his estate plan, do you have a suspicion that he was exploited into doing so? If you believe that your father was exploited, whether exploited to change his trust or do things with the money that weren't in his best interests or benefit or in violation of the trust, in general, an attorney may be able to investigate this and help you sort it out. Depending on where your father lived, exploitation laws may be very strict with really high penalties. This is the case in Arizona. My AZ attorney told me that even a person who drove or attended the meeting with an estate attorney in which the trust was changed could be considered part of the exploitation. So, these are things to discuss with an attorney.

2. Have you hired an attorney? If not, it would be a good idea. Get an atty who not only deals with estates, but also is an elder law atty or has a great deal of knowledge and experience in the area of dealing with the elderly and this sort of estate hanky panky.

3. Have you looked at the terms of your father's trust (i.e., the version that was in effect at the time of his death) or had an attorney do so to determine whether any terms in that trust were/have been violated by trustees and family members?

4. Do you have access to see the actual trust accounts (i.e., the money in the accounts and the investment and withdrawal activities)? If so, go through them very, very carefully (or have your attorney or an accountant do so) to make sure things (i.e, activities on movement of the moneys) are on the up-and-up and that there was no invasion of those accounts and your 90K.

5. Are you able to look at your father's trust document, itself, or did he direct others to keep it hidden from you? My father did the latter and his trustee tried to tell me I had no rights to see his trust. However, both my Phoenix atty and my husband's and my own estate atty (locally in the town we live in) told us that this was BS. Both attorneys told me that I have every right to see a will, trust, etc. My Phoenix atty told me that she could petition the court to hand it over and they would rule in her favor and she informed my father's trustee's atty of this and that she would petition the court if necessary and would win. The trustee's atty acknowledged that he knew this would be the case and he talked to the trustee asking her to just send me a copy of my father's changed survivor's trust. But, for some reason, my atty never petitioned for it and I never did see the terms of my father's individual trust. So, if your father's trustees or family members are withholding his trust documents from you, have your atty petition the court for them so both you and the atty can look at these documents.

Ultimately, though, because the tests of testimentary capacity (i.e., cognitive abilities and whether a person is mentally with it) are very rudimentary and basically worthless according to my Phoenix atty, if your father's estate atty determined he wasn't cognitively impaired (even if he really was) and therefore had the right to change his estate and write you out of it such that he gave that 90K to someone else, you probably won't get it back. Basically, it was his money and he could leave it to whomever he pleased and do with it what he pleased. But, if he didn't change that part of his trust and you're still named as the rightful heir/beneficiary to it, then you probably have a case to recoup it. That's why it would be good to hire an attorney to sort this all out and explain things to you. In my case, though, since my mother was initially mentally unable to have changed her part of the overall estate plan to write me out (she wouldn't have done this anyway) and then because she had already died before my NPD father changed the estate, I was still legally named her beneficiary at the time my father changed his part of the estate, and the terms of the decedent's trust (i.e., my mother's part of the estate) legally had to be followed-- even though the trustee and my father's corrupt, opportunistic associates and beneficiaries tried to spin it and work around it. Unfortunately, they got away with some stuff. But in the end, I actually came out quite a bit ahead, getting some things I hadn't even expected. And, once I got what I wanted and my attorney said I likely wouldn't get everything and it could become extended and expensive and possibly open some cans of worms that I didn't want to open, I told her to close out the case.

So sorry to hear that you're going through this. It's bad enough having an NPD parent, then having to deal with the hanky panky of others. Very maddening!

NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) does not make someone incompetent, just highly annoying. Pretty common among elected officials and highly successful CEO's.

Hi dadwasNPD
I'm still out here, but nobody has updated this thread in awhile. My parents' family trust was set up such on the death of the first one (in this case, my mother), the bigger trust would be split off into a decedent's trust and a survivor's trust in which the total estate would be split equally down the middle, with half going into the decedent's (deceased person's) part of the estate and the other half to the survivor's own trust. My father did this, but because I had had to sever my relationship with him because his NPD and its associated pathological lying and other bad behaviors had led to an Arizona Assistant Atty General in Tucson, AZ, falsely accusing me of things my father had lied to her about me, threatening me with criminal prosecution on the basis of his lies, and effectively barring me from my mother and being with her at her deathbed, my father named a different trustee for his survivor's trust. His estate attorney in Tucson who had drawn up an amended trust for my parents 7 years prior, didn't bother to test my father's mental status, only a very rudimentary check of his cognitive abilities (i.e., what's your name, who's the president, what's your birthdate-- all of which he could answer), saying she remembered him from 7 years previous, but didn't account for mental changes in that time span (plus my NPD piece of sh*t father had always been very adept at covering up his mental illness and manipulating people into believing he was the victim). As a result, the estate attorney allowed my father to split the trust. However, he also claimed things as his own that were either solely my mother's or co-owned. Then, the trustee got her attorney to send me a collection affidavit indicating that I owed a big sum of money for accrued income due to my father's beneficiary/beneficiaries from my mother's estate (decedent's trust). I enlisted the help of an attorney in Phoenix, AZ, that I had had to hire to deal with the BS from the assistant atty general in Tucson. We found that my father and his financial advisor had violated the terms of the trust and had invaded the principle of my mother's estate-- basically, they had breached their fiduciary responsibility to my mother and me to protect her assets. As a result, my attorney told the trustee's attorney that I was very seriously considering suing not only the financial advisor and his client (i.e., the person my father had named as the trustee to his survivor's trust), but also his entire estate and I would win in light of the breach of fiduciary responsibility and his changed estate would be invalidated. The trustee's attorney, realizing that I would win, dropped all effort to get me to pay the accrued income. But, he stated that I wasn't entitled to any of the tangible items, which was BS since the items were co-owned by both parents, meaning that I was entitled to half of those. There was alot of lying and hanky-panky going on with beneficiaries, financial advisor (who was named the beneficiary of my parents' tangibles, yet lied to me and gave many things away to others), my father's sleaze bucket CPA who had been robbing him blind, etc, etc, etc. Basically, the MO with people in Tucson, AZ, is not only lying and corruption, but bullying and intimidation tactics and preying on a person's ignorance. Extremely rude people there who all can go straight to hell as far as I'm concerned! My hatred of all things related to Tucson, AZ, goes very deeply and intensely. Anyway, my attorney was able to get me some of the tangibles, but we decided not to pursue a lawsuit on the breach of fiduciary responsibility because, in the end, it would have been a costly endeavor, I didn't want to have to return to Tucson for a hearing (I hate the place enough to never step foot in that shit hole again), and I had actually come out way ahead-- not only in terms of the financial aspect, but also in getting a number of my mother's tangible items. But, I can absolutely understand where you're coming from. While I wasn't dealing with family members, my only sibling (a sister) having died 20 years previous to this whole thing, I had to deal with thieving, opportunistic associates of my father who exploited the hell out of him. If I had wanted to pursue that line (at a big financial cost), I could have likely had all of them either locked up as the criminals they all are or have sued them for everything they were worth for their exploitation. But, it wasn't worth the investment, both financially and mentally, to do this. Since there appears to be a limit on characters, I'm going to continue my comments, relative to your situation, in another post.

Thanks for the info about the YouTube video. I'm going to check it out. Interesting perspectives about NPD people and cognitive deficiencies-- not surprising, though.

I hope someone is still following this thread. rr4terps, are you still out there? I am in the middle of dealing with the mess my late father left me thanks to his Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A recent YouTube video by Sam Vaknin describes how Narcs do have cognitive deficiencies, are delusional to an extent because of problems perceiving reality correctly. I am hoping to get the trustees and some thieving opportunistic distant family members to sit up and take notice AND get me back nearly 90K. I am hoping to share my story around as well.

TooYoungForThis: To answer your question art pieces, etc., that the beneficiary group refuses to release to me: There is some value to the art pieces, but individually not worth that much (I discuss that aspect in more detail below). My attorney has asked the same question about the beneficiary group's reluctance. She told me that she has never encountered the situation where a beneficiary group refused to hand over items that a family member requested. But, she has encountered this when the beneficiary is just one person. When she spoke to my dad's trustee's attorney, he (atty) stated that the beneficiary group isn't keeping the items on the basis of their monetary value and has no intention of selling them, but rather wants to keep them because they're part of their culture and beliefs, which leads me to believe that this group is a religious organization of some sort. I suspect that this group isn't being honest, recognizes the value of some of the art pieces, and does have intention to sell at least some of them for monetary profit. However, as I previously stated, none of the pieces are of museum quality, but several (about 12 pieces) of them that my uncle (my mom's brother) left her are prints/sketches/etchings/oil paintings, mainly framed 5 X 7s and 8 X 10s, signed by the original artist. There may be a few pieces in that group that belonged to my maternal grandmother, but I'm not sure. But, from what I remember of those 12 art pieces, I don't recall that any of them were by famous artists, although it's not impossible that there could have been a few in the group. I highly doubt that any of those pieces is worth more than a few thousand dollars each maximum, if even that much. Among the pieces that were my parents' (not passed down from my uncle), the lithograph (actually, my mom's since the authenticity certificate was issued to her in her name, but shared by my parents) is probably the most valuable of my parents' artwork at a current value of $650. This piece has appreciated in value only about $200 - $400 in the 48 years since my mom bought it. There may be other pieces among my parents' art pieces that are worth about $500 max, many of the pieces being reproduced prints/paintings, many not signed by the artist, and some lithographs. I believe that while the beneficiary group has been informed that several of the pieces have sentimental value to me as part of my family's history, they also realize that several of those pieces have some monetary value, even though not real high value, that they hope to cash in on and aren't being honest enough to admit that this is their motive. As a sum total of all 40 to 50 pieces that were in my dad's possession at the time of his death, the beneficiary group could possibly get somewhere in the range of $10,000 to $25,000 total for the whole bunch, depending on what an appraisal would reveal (so, average of about $500 - $650 per piece, with several of them being worth far less than that). I believe that if there wasn't some motive to cash in on these pieces, the group would have released to me the pieces I requested on the basis of their sentimental value to me. Also, they released to me 3 pieces that they obviously don't like/don't want and which each have a value under $100 each. My atty and I find this behavior interesting, suspicious, and certainly not charitable if the beneficiary is a religious organization as we suspect it to be. Since my dad was extremely adamant that his trust/its stipulations not be shared with me and his trustee and others are very closely holding to that, my atty and I have no idea what's behind the beneficiary group being so unwilling to release these tangible items to me. The only way we can find out is for my atty to petition the court for the trust and have it released to her, which the court would grant my atty. However, she also told me that unless there are art pieces among the group of 40 – 50 pieces that are worth thousands upon thousands of dollars (which none of them individually are, even with the pieces from my uncle ), not only could it not be cost effective to pay the high costs entailed with an appraisal but there's a pretty good likelihood that if I decided to sell any of the pieces I wouldn't get the appraised value for most/many of them. Furthermore, my attorney also advised me that the legal costs to deal with getting these pieces would be high and probably more than the sum total of what the 40 – 50 pieces are worth, even though I've never had intention to sell any of the pieces, wanting them only for their sentimental value and to pass on to my heirs. My atty told me that she could likely legally get me the lithograph on the basis of the authenticity certificate. But again, are the legal fees to get this worth it given that the lithograph is only worth $650, even though the sentimental value to me has a higher value? Probably not. So, I'm just going to have to let this go with the thought that maybe my heirs wouldn't want these pieces anyway and maybe I don't need to have yet more stuff in my house at a time that my husband and I are trying to downsize. Fortunately, I was left my mom's half of the estate, which did include things that were hers alone that she used and cherished plus some money. And, I was also given all of the photos and family photo albums plus some books. This doesn't mean that I'm not angered by the beneficiary group's refusal to release items that they know have sentimental value to me and by the fact that the tangible property list that both of my parents signed (and that I have a copy of ) is being ignored and that my atty and I think that these shared community property tangibles should have been split evenly between the beneficiary group and me. I just have to accept the group's lack of respect and that there's not much I can do when people decide to be dishonest, even religious groups. As I mentioned in a previous post, my atty has advised me to lay low because there's a circumstance in which I actually stand to come out much farther ahead from the financial end than what the sum total of those art pieces are worth. While the financial aspect is nice, it's still the sentimental value that has more meaning to me.

TooYoungForThis: Thanks for your insights on your answer about hidden assets, the mistress, etc. And yes, I do understand the potential for high legal fees and atty's fees even when you haven't retained the atty, having myself been dealing with an atty related to not only my parents' estate but also the results of my dad's betrayal and threats and accusations by an idiot arrogant assistant AG in his state. Because of the potential for sky high legal costs, my atty has advised me on how to pick my battles and what has the most chance of success. And, you're right when you suggest that exhaustedsis pick her battles because her situation is complicated, may take alot of time and investigation, with a high chance of her/her mother not getting any of her dad's assets that he gave to his mistress. If a sizable amount of money or other assets are involved, exhaustedsis and her mom may feel that it's worth the investment in atty's fees to pursue this. And hopefully, an atty would be honest enough to tell her that it's not worth the legal costs to pursue this. I'm lucky in that I have an atty who has told me what the chances are for success and what's worth it to pursue and what should just be let go on my part.

One thing I don't quite understand is why, if the art pieces & other heirlooms aren't worth anything, the beneficiary group would want them at all? If they are just things that have been passed down through generations of family that do not have any value, I can't see why the beneficiary group would want to keep them & not give them back to you.

Again, I suspect there is a sizable amount of money and assets here. That is the reason your parents had their own trusts, with pour over trusts, etc. People with moderate assets don't do that.

As you went on to further explain your situation, you said a lot about your father's NPD & BPD but only mentioned the "tangible items" in a general sense & that they hold good family memories. If you don't mind me asking, what are the tangible items you're talking about that you don't want the beneficiary group to have? Of course, you don't have to say what they are, but I am just curious. You mention the lithograph a few times. You said that your mother's antiques were thrown away from the storage unit.

There's a lot involved in your situation.

rr4terps----It doesn't matter what the will says. Her father spent money on his mistress when he was alive. The will pertains to whatever is left as far as assets after a spouse dies. Her father had total choice & free will to spend money however he wanted to spend it. A court will look at it this way: Why didn't she or her mother notice that money was being spent by dad on things that weren't being brought into the marriage?

She can certainly discuss/consult with an attorney. However, attorneys only give the first 30 minute consultation for "free"-----after that, they charge an hourly fee. So, for the attorney to review things & discuss them with her, she is going to have to pay to have an attorney do that. Attorneys don't work for free, even if they're not retained.

Trying to track money is extremely difficult, especially in a situation like this. The money isn't "dirty", like from drug sales or illegal gun sales, etc., so a court isn't likely to order that the mistress's bank info be revealed. If she is keeping cash in a safe deposit box, it is nearly impossible to find that. People hide assets all the time. I don't know how much is involved, but if there is a significant amount of money, & it has been put into an offshore account, good luck. It will NEVER be found. Even if it were put into a bank account in another state that would make it exceedingly difficult to find. That would also complicate things because the state that the money is in may have very different laws that the state that the lawsuit is commenced in----and she may need another lawyer in the state that the money is in. People are very clever when hiding assets.

I am only saying what I know from having a fair amount of legal experience in civil litigation. A lawsuit like this could take many years, hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees, & a lot of anger, frustration & aggravation. She'd need a private investigator, usually one that the law firm/attorney works with on a regular basis, and they can command as much as $500/hour.

As angry as she may be about the mistress, who she should really be mad at is her father. Did she or her mother know about the mistress when he was alive---did they see money being taken out of bank accounts? Did they question it?

Many times, it is easier to just FORGIVE. It has to do with taking the high road & being okay with what happened. Her father cheated on her mother, & of course she has the right to be upset about that. However, she can't address this with her father because he's gone. Going through a long, protracted lawsuit that will likely cost several hundred thousand dollars in legal fees that they won't get back is probably not worth it. Sometimes you just have to move on despite the circumstances. Beating a dead horse get tiring after a while.

You mentioned hiding assets - might it make a difference what kind of assets? Money could be very hard to trace, but real property, etc., maybe not.

TooYoungForThis: You bring up interesting points that exhaustedsis should consider. However, I think that without knowing what's stipulated in exhaustedsis's parents' wlll, neither of us is in a position to really judge whether or not she should pursue this matter to try to recoup the money or whether or not it's worth it to do so. In my opinion, exhaustedsis has nothing to lose by having an attorney look at the will and advise her accordingly based on seeng exactly what's written in the will. However, I think that it will be very important for exhaustedsis to ask questions related to the points that you've brought up and probably other questions as well to determine what her/her mother's chances are of recouping the money, how much it's going to cost, how involved it's going to become, etc. Then, on that basis, she can determine whether or not it's worth it to pursue this or just cut her losses and move on. She has nothing to lose (and it may not be a waste of her time), in my opinion, to get this info. from the attorney, if for no other reason than peace of mind if it turns out it's going to be an long, complicated, expensive process.

exhaustedsis---I know this is not what you want to hear, but men have affairs all the time. Men spend money on their mistresses all the time. Men can spend their money on anything they want & just because they spent it to support a mistress doesn't mean that the money was taken "fraudulently". If all the "community money" in a marriage is considered 50/50, when someone is alive they can spend their 50% any way they want, including spending it on a mistress. It is going to be extremely difficult to get any money from his mistress. It will take you so long & cost you so much money to get her bank account information or any other information to prove that he was hiding assets that it probably isn't worth the time or huge legal fees that it will cost to get the information. It will also take years. Not worth it, in my opinion. It will be so aggravating & frustrating on your part that it won't be worth it. An estate attorney probably isn't going to be able to do anything. You'd probably need a litigation attorney because you'd have to file a civil suit against the mistress. Litigation attorneys work on hourly retainers with a retainer fee up front. The mistress has nothing to do with the estate----she'd need to be sued like any other entity when trying to recover monies. You're probably looking at a protracted lawsuit that may take several years & a ton of money in legal fees----civil suits take a very long time to come to fruition. Is it worth it?

exhaustedsis: Good, I'm glad that you'll be following through with an estate attorney, whether it's the one who originally drew up your parents' will or another. This person should be able to advise you. Hopefully, no surprises such as your dad having created his own will naming his mistress as beneficiary and then moving/putting assets in that will. Best wishes and good luck as you work through this and get things figured out.

he had a will and no change was made to it......my mother is the beneficiary....thank you for the advice....i will contact an estate attorney. appreciate it!

exhaustedsis: Wow! What a difficult situation. It's unfortunate that you/your family weren't aware of the situation before your dad passed away. Is it safe to assume that he hadn't been legally been declared as mentally incompetent? Did your dad legally (in writing and notarized by his estate atty) change his will or trust to name his mistress as the beneficiary of your parents' assets? I would suggest talking with his estate attorney, if your dad had a will or trust. If he didn't legally change his existing will/trust to name his mistress as the beneficiary of his assets and you/your mom/siblings are named as beneficiaries, it would seem to me that his mistress would have no legal right to any of the assets and would have to hand them over to your family, something an atty could advise you about and help you to recover those assets.

My father is a text book sociopath. he passed away and we found out he had a mistress and in the past years has used community money (marital money) to support the mistress and in the past year he has hidden assets in her name. He has been on oxygen for the last several months and i am wondering how to recover the assets he fraudulently took from the marriage to benefit the mistress.

N1K2R3: The estate plan is a revocable trust, not a will.I have no intention of taking this to court to contest it. However, if I did, the court would have to determine if the part of the family trust that states that the survivor (my dad) can take only his share of the community property and place that into his own trust (a survivor's trust) and that the remaining trust stays in the trust of the decedent (i.e., my mom since she had died before my dad) was followed to the tee. From the perspective of 2 attys I've shown the family trust document to, this doesn't appear to have totally been followed. Some of the assets were divided as stipulated, but tangible property items weren't. Because there's a tangible property list that I have a copy of, my atty was going to check with the original atty who drew up my parents' trust to see if he has a bill of sales for that list which places it in the family trust. If so, my dad legally should have been able to pour over half of those tangible items into his own trust, leaving half in my mom's estate, which I inherited. Since my dad was very adamant that I not be allowed to see his trust and his atty agreed, there is no way for my atty and me to know if my dad's atty correctly followed the stipulations of the larger family trust which controls any trusts or wills that pour over from it. With my dad ordering that I wasn't allowed to see his trust, for all I know, his trust states he only gets half of the community property and his trustee isn't being on the up and up with me or maybe his estate atty figured that since I'd never see my dad's trust they could tell me whatever they wanted and take my mom's share of the tangible assets. There's also the fact that I have an authenticity certificate for a lithograph and that certificate is in my mom's name. In any case, my atty told me that if it becomes necessary, she'll petition the court for a copy of my dad's trust and it's very customary for the court to honor a petition and order the trustee to give my atty a copy of the trust. Right now, though, we're not doing this unless certain events (I'm not at liberty to discuss here) take place.

rr4terps, You do mean the will when you refer to "the estate plan", do you not? Courts are not very understanding when it comes to the complaints of disgruntled heirs. Wills may be contested but rarely overturned.

emjo23: Wow, you're dealing with alot between your mom and your sister--- double whammy there. Sounds like you're in a tough, no-win spot no matter what you do. Doing all the work then being blamed is a hard spot to be in and I can certainly relate, having been in the same spot with my dad. Fortunately, my sister wasn't a narcissist and we would have worked together well. But unfortunately, she died before my parents ever got to the stage and age of needing to have their POAs executed. I hope that your mom and sister don't decide to escalate their accusations to APS or the police. And, hopefully your mom's lawyer realizes what your sister and mom are doing and is discouraging changes to the will. Detachment sounds like it's the best way for you to stay mentally and physically healthy. Fortunately, you have your mom's caregivers as the middlemen to keep your distance from her. Because my dad was fairly independent, living in the independent living part of a facility, there were no middlemen that I could work through. The accusations of meddling also forced me to keep an arm's length from any of his associates, although I did send one email to his financial adviser to explain why I had had to detach. BPD and narcissism are hard enough to deal with without the added paranoia and vascular dementia. What this amounts to for you with your mom's and sister's behavior is mental abuse, which is what I experienced with my dad. Your theme of taking care of yourself is right on the mark, and I'm glad that you're doing that.

Thanks, Yes, I have been through the mill and not completely finished yet. I am 77 and my mother is a physically healthy 102 yr. old. I have remained detached and continue to detach more and more. I have to for my mental and physical health. Mother and my sister made a trip to mother's lawyer last year after accusing me of things. She could have changed her will again then as my sis has always wanted and worked towards getting all the inheritance. I am POA medical and financial and also executor. Mother is mentally ill but not stupid and knew I would do the better job. Also I am the servant "child" whose job it is to do the work and take the criticism. Sis is the "golden child". Mother has Borderline Personality Disorder with narcissism and now paranoia and vascular dementia. My sis is also narcissistic. It has been quite a ride at times, but I am healing and need emotional and physical distance to do so. I deal with her largely at arm's length and through the people who care for her. My theme is take care of yourself - sounds like you are.

emjo23: Thanks for the supportive words and your insights. Sounds like you've been through the mill with your dysfunctional family. And, I agree with what you've stated, especially the parts about detaching and what's the most important thing in life--- this is where I'm at now. Detachment was what I felt was the only way to go given the situation and realized that my dad's mental illness made it impossible to healthily reattach. Plus, I was sick and tired of his disrespectful treatment of both my mom and me, and so drew the line in the sand. I might not have done this if not for the legal situation, but that certainly forced me to finally make the decision--- that and the fact that my mom had died and I no longer needed to be involved in her care. Unlike you, even if I had reattached with my dad, I highly doubt that he would have written me back into his will--- he wouldn't have wanted to spend more money on the atty given that he always falsely cried poverty, plus once he made up his mind to do something, he tenaciously held to that and his beliefs and wouldn't make changes. He deluded himself into believing that he had disowned me for being friends with my mom's caregiver and nothing was going to change his mind, not even my reattaching with him and calling on the phone, about this belief about the basis for the disowning or my alleged "friendship" with my mom's care manager. In reality, it was nothing more than a working relationship, kept on a professional level and (i.e., our personal lives not a part of it) focused on my mom's care. We discussed only stuff related to my mom's care, whether or not in my dad's presence, and didn't socialize beyond the usual "hi, how are you, I'm fine" stuff. But because my dad had a personality conflict with my mom's care manager, as he did with the majority of people in his life, he chose to believe and tenaciously hold on to his belief, that we had a friendship. Given his NPD, my dad consistently demonstrated that he didn't understand the meaning of friendship. He's gone now and all I can do now is to heal and cherish my health and my family and friends. I hope that you'll also eventually reach a point of complete healing.

sherry1anne: I can totally relate to your husband's situation, and am glad that your MIL didn't sign her part of the trust over. I feel extremely fortunate that my dad couldn't legally invade my mom's part of the trust because she was already dead when he made the changes. But, even if she had been alive, she had already been declared legally incompetent. The whole thing is just a tough situation, and I have to agree with Pam's comment about just dying poor and penniless and enjoying my net worth while I'm alive and mentally and physically capable--- although, I'll go with freqflyer's comment to leave just enough money to be able to pay for/afford a good facility/good care for both my husband and me. Much less complicated that way.

Greeneyedmom: I agree with your statement about attorneys and difference between legal and medical competence. The fact that my dad was very, very adamant that I not be allowed to see his trust and his trust and estate atty strongly protecting it from my view, even though my atty can legally petition the court and they will order the trust doc to be released to my atty, something just doesn't smell right to me here. Perhaps the atty is unscrupulous or maybe my dad was unduly influenced and the atty knows that, but I have no way to prove anything, especially since I'm not allowed to be privy to my dad's trust. These situations and some attys just muddy the waters. But, if all that was required of my dad's atty was just the very minimum, there's not much more that can be done unless the situation that I've alluded to in other posts crops up and my atty then pursues things.

rr4terps ((((((((hugs))))))) glad you are proceeding with your healing. It isn't easy dealing with mental illness in one's family. I have come to the point that my healing and my welfare are paramount, and material things are just that and have to be let go of. I have seen more than one instance of what looks like "unfair" distribution of worldly goods. I have been an inheritor, been disinherited and then put back in the will again. I think I still am but, whatever. Unfair has been a theme in our dysfunctional family and it will run its course. Narcissism is a no win unless you detach, and then it affects you much less.

TooYoungForThis: I want to clarify a couple of points you brought up.
1. 1. Re: your comment about how an assistant AG could do anything to me from a distance: Given that I wasn't a suspect in my mom's alleged abuse, the assistant AG's threats and accusations were simply an auxiliary bullying and intimidation tactic for her own narcissistic benefit. I realized from the beginning that she had nothing on me and that at the worst this would be civil matter, meaning that she couldn't extradite me to her state. However, given her position in a high level state office and given the inclusion of elder abuse and meddling in an elderly person's affairs, with elder abuse and elder issues such as exploitation being a hot button item, there was no way in hell that I was going to risk legal complications. Given my dad's mental illness and the fact that he had already crossed the line with his false statements to legal authorities and his having previously crossed a similar line by reporting others in his life who made him angry to people whose positions require that they file reports to legal authorities, APS, etc, there was a very high risk that my dad would once again do this with me. My atty warned me of this on the basis of her experience in elder law and warned me of the potential legal complications and the associated potential very high legal costs. And, while I couldn't have been extradited, the assistant AG/AG's office would likely have continued to contact me (harassment that my atty said she'd go after them for it they did this) and, there was also the risk that if I went to visit my dad, once in their jurisdiction, I could be arrested especially because of the high likelihood that my dad would either contact legal authorities about my visit or would tell staff at his facility who would then contact the authorities on his behalf. So, my atty strongly advised that I keep a low profile, which I did by detaching from my dad. From my perspective, when any aspect of elder abuse and exploitation is thrown into the picture and threats and accusations are made by someone in a high state office, I listen to my atty and take no chances, even though the results were that I was written out of my dad's part of my parents' estate.

2. Re: your comment on the value of the art pieces: Unless they were worth tens of thousands of dollars and were of museum quality, which none of them are, from my perspective if I had intention to sell them even after going through the hassles of appraisal, I highly doubt that I'd get what they're worth. Yes, to me sentimental value is more valuable than monetary worth. But, I also have to look at it from the perspective of whether or not my kids and grandkids would even want these art pieces if they were passed down to them and if I'd have enough room on my walls to display even half of them. So, while I'd like to have them for their sentimental value and ability to enjoy them whether on my wall or in a place where I can just go and look at them whenever, I also have to realize that in the bigger picture and after I'm gone, they may not have that same sentimental value to my own heirs. However, I would have liked to have had the choice to decide this. But, it is what it is and I just have to come to terms with what my dad did by leaving these family items to non-family members and his beneficiary group's disregard and disrespect for my position as my family's sole survivor. Life is unfair and there's not much any of us can do about it. I can take comfort in knowing that one member of that beneficiary group, my dad's financial adviser, understands my position and very pointedly told my dad's trustee, others in the beneficiary group, and me that she strongly feels that no matter what my dad's and my relationship was, every one of those items he left to the beneficiary group should be given to me on the basis of their place in my family and my being sole survivor. But, the law prevails, my dad legally changed the estate plan, and it doesn't matter what his financial adviser thinks. She could try to talk to her co-beneficiaries, but she really doesn't have much say or exert much influence in the matter.

palmtrees1: I'm sorry to hear of your situation and hope that your worst fears don't become reality. But, you're smart to just assume that this will be the situation so you won't be upset.

Re: my dad and being a loving father: He did consistently show me love in my youth and at times into my young adulthood. But, it became increasingly less frequent by the time I reached my mid-30s, and hardly ever in the last 15-20 years, with nothing at all in the past 8 - 9 years. As they say, "Elvis left the building" and the person my dad ultimately morphed into these last years was a complete stranger to me. I long ago mourned the loss of the kind side of the father I knew in my youth and can't mourn this stranger who recently passed away. Unfortunately, this stranger and his pathological behaviors, having been in residence in my dad's body for so long, have overlaid any good memories of the other man I once knew. I think this anger part of my grief, exacerbated by this estate situation, isn't as much a grief for my dad, but more a grief over loss of good memories our family shared, which existed even though they became less frequent as my dad's narcissism became more entrenched. And, while I had gotten to a point late last year where I could say I no longer care, just as you've done, this last death of everyone in my nuclear family which has left me as its sole survivor, has hit home made worse by losing ties to good memories that these tangible items represent for me. But, I just have to now work really hard at letting this go and realizing that these are simply possessions and that the more/most important things in life are good mental and physical health and the people in one's life.

You're right that narcissistic people see things through a distorted window and, this distorted perception then impairs their decision making ability, something I consistently saw with my dad, and perhaps something you're seeing with your parents. And, you're also right in that there's little that can be done when narcissism is involved. It's a no-win situation for a family and only leads to heartache and bad consequences.

Freqflyer: My atty deals in elder law, as well as estate law. So, I've got that covered. You're right, I have to move on, and am working toward that with the help of a therapist, and hopefully will gain some inner peace and healing through some other things I'm pursuing. As I stated to Jeanne, family betrayal, mental illness and abuse, etc. are difficult to deal with and take time and hard work to work through and get over. Add to that a complicated bereavement for my mom (i.e., us being effectively barred from being together at her deathbed and having closure with each other before her death), and it's a hard journey. I fight with myself everyday not be consumed by this situation. They say that what doesn't kill you makes you tougher. While this experience hasn't physically killed me, it has killed some of my spirit but has also made me wiser and hopefully tougher going forward. Certainly lots of things I've learned from this that I can apply to my own estate and my own life and immediate family. Sometimes, it takes a harsh wake up call like what I experienced to realize your own stupidity, that you've been on a wrong path in family relationships all along, and that family loyalty and not harming/betraying your own flesh and blood aren't things that should be expected and taken for granted to happen within families. A sad situation, but it's just a fact of life that I'm now sharply attuned to.



1. Re: your comment about how

jeannegibbs: I understand that only attorneys can help me. My purpose in posting this post was to see if others participating in this site have had similar experiences and could give me some further ideas and insights. Given other posts I've read at this site about others' situations and helpful responses to those posts, in addition to the insights I gained from responses to my 9/2014 post, I felt that I would again get some good perspectives, which I have and appreciate. I've also been seeing a therapist for over 2 years as a result of my dad's betrayal and the resulting PTSD that I experienced as a result of the assistant AG's bullying and intimidation. While my dad's recent death and this whole estate thing have made some things resurface and have caused a little setback, I'm still alot farther ahead in the healing process than I was even a year ago. Despite this recent setback and my associated anger, I'm to a point of being ready to move on toward reaching deep inner healing and have been provided with various resources to start down that path. Healing from the results of family dysfunction, consequences and experience of a parent's mental illness, and having been a victim of mental abuse for years takes a long time and alot of work to heal from. Unfortunately, many people don't understand or realize this unless they've experienced it themselves or have been closely involved with someone who has.

Re: your question about my buying the items of sentimental value: Even if I offered to do that, based on things that have been very clearly and consistently stated to my dad's trustee by the beneficiary group and communicated to me through her (trustee), they want to keep the stuff no matter what and have absolutely no intentions of selling the stuff to anyone, including me. And, even if they were willing to sell the items back to me, a part of me says why should I have to buy back stuff that is rightfully half of my mom's estate that was left to me and that belong to me by virtue of them being part of an estate that I inherited? My dad was a god in the beneficiary group's eyes and they're tenaciously holding on to the things, even though it's been explained to them why I'd like to have the things and their significance to me. Their attitude and clear message to me, including the trustee's, has been "tough crap for you, just get over it." Not surprising to me since my entire experience with people in that city, in general, over the 8 years I was involved in things with my parents has been rudeness, disrespect, disregard toward me based on my dad having made slanderous comments about me over that entire period. I confirmed my suspicions that my dad was doing this way too late-- damage to my reputation already done, which given that I don't live in that city wouldn't have mattered except for what has now resulted in terms of my obtaining these items of sentimental value. While I explained to several of my dad's associates at the time of his impending death the situation that led to my having to detach from my dad and they expressed shock, these people, most of whom are in the beneficiary group, basically have minimized my feelings. It's a matter of them either not understanding the magnitude of the situation and the emotional impact and trauma or simply not caring. The pervading attitude (and maybe the culture) in that city appears to be that non-residents of the state and city are looked on with suspicion and as outsiders, an attitude reminiscent of attitudes and actions you see or hear about happening to outsiders who venture into rural areas in the deep South or rural mountain areas (e.g, Appalachia). This city and the state are in neither of those areas. So, bottom line is that there's not much I can do but to cut my losses and move on, unless a certain situation comes up. If this situation comes up, my atty will pursue legal action which would include, but not be limited to, presentation of the authenticity certificate for the one lithograph. She feels that we have a case, but wants me to lie low for now because I have more to gain and will come out farther ahead by laying low and letting the items of sentimental value go.

rr4terps, it's time to either hire an Elder Law attorney to see what can be done, if anything, years after the fact. I can see this is consuming you and that can't be healthy at all. Maybe it is time to let it go.

I mean the not having a loving father, can't say your father was ever loving. I know how that feels.