Both of my parents are alive. They have lived all of their retirement years in a house owned by my Wife and I, on the water. They have lived off of military retirment, Social Security and what the water bares them in the form of seafood. It all sounds wonderful, doesn't it?
Too bad life isn't as simple as all of that for us. It has been a long road getting to this point, and it seems it will still be a long road ahead. My Parents landed in our home because we were able and willing to help them. Prior to that, they had been living well, but went bankrupt during one of the real estate collapses. They had borrowed money from us and at least one other sibling, trying to keep afloat until things improved...but they didn't improve, as is evident by the term 'bankrupt'.
After the bankrupcy, between the two of them, my Parents progressed into repeated money management issues, creating more and more debt, often for pleasure purchases. They also progressed into increasing levels of hoarding, from 'someday' projects to 'someday we might need this'. Years ago, it had gotten to the point that we couldn't walk through the wrap-around porch of our house, and sleeping in the guest bedroom was risky, as those piles glared down at you. Never mind the garage and the shed!
August 27, 2011, Hurricane Irene pays a visit. The house is destroyed, along with over 1/2 of the contents. My Parents are losing 'everything' again. To us, much of what was lost was junk they hoarded over the years. To them, well...it's what they have left. We cleaned up and prepared the house to be removed. Cleanup was fun. My Dad was reluctant to let things go, even if it was under water. he knew that the sewage was right there with it.
My Mom couldn't help, as she is all but disabled. She is extremely overweight and has bad knees. She can only get around with a walker for a short time...and is falling constantly. Add to that she has Diabetes, Asthma, slurred speech and is having seizures that the Doctors can't seem to identify the cause for. Recently she was told anxiety. Probably the case, in my opinion. She's already on every pill under the sun, though, including anxiety meds and anti-depresents.
My Wife and I have begun rebuilding our house. In fact, we had planned to build our retirement home here some years down the road, so we are doing it now. The house is bigger. We designed it to have the same number of bedrooms, but a wide-open floor plan and a handicap-accessible bathroom with a 5'x5' shower you can walk into with a walker, wheelchair or scooter. We included a ramp out the back door to the garage, as well.
You have a pretty good picture of the foreground and a few pieces of the background. i need to fill in the background a little more:
My Dad is ex-military. He was very strict and hot-tempered as we were growing up. He is still hot-tempered. He reflects an attitude that says 'somebody owes me', and he projects it onto at least most of my four siblings and I. He has never used the words 'I'm Sorry', at least not in my presence. I've seldomly even heard 'Thank You'. Finally, nothing is ever a good idea unless he came up with it.
He complains about everything...but to friends and neighbors. Unless we bring it up, he says nothing of his complaints. If we bring it up...it becomes and argument, then escalates.
My Mom is relatively passive. Her thing our entire lives was to keep the peace, no matter what (This is probably a good time to admit that I have been alot like my Mother over the years, though I do have some of my Father's stubborness!). She has sat with me and told me many that this is what she does. After a heated argument with my Father a couple days ago she told me she acknowledges the fact that my Father has never thought before he spoke. She learned to just let it go and ignore him. Most of us kids learned the same. However, I can't expect my Wife, our nieghbors and friends to do the same.
I think the main source of frustration for my Mother over recent years is been the fact that her increasing physical limitations make it difficult to impossible to 'keep the peace'. I believe that the physical limitations along with all of these years of looking at the piles of 'stuff' she helped create have greatly contributed to her excessive obeisity and depressive state. I sometimes feel like she's just waiting to die. She is only 75 years old. She should be enjoying her retirement!
After one more heated argument, we are now faced with a decision of possibly not letting my parents move into our house once it's built. This wil be the 2nd time we've arrived here in the past few months. I never wanted my Parent's lives to end this way, yet I don't see any way around it. I'm afraid that when my Mother dies, I'm not going to be able to forgive my Father for the way he treated her. Add to that, none of the kids are willing to accept responsibility for my Father when she does.
So, Now what?
I don't know about your family, but my mother is the reason why our family managed to stay intact during the five unaccompanied overseas tours my father had before I was a teenager, three of them in Vietnam. She had four kids and about fifty dogs to care for and she managed to do it while she worked a full-time job. She sucked it up and lived up to her wedding vows, somehow managing to keep us all together while we waited to see if my father would even make it home, much less make it home alive. Now, my mother has health issues similar to your mother's, but I don't sit back and look down on her because she's got these issues now. How she came to this point is not the issue, nor is it my business to remind her how she got to this point. She's somehow managed to live beyond the predictions and long enough to need my help now. She has it regardless of whether it is convenient or what it costs me. She's my mother and she's the only one I've got. She took care of me when I was growing up and it's my turn to do for her. However, I don't think I'd make the mistake of treating her like a wayward teenager, simply because she deserves my complete respect both from me and in the way that I speak about her to others. She brought me up better than that.
In the Bible, Noah had a son who uncovered his nakedness --- in other words, he went and blabbed details about Noah that he shouldn't have. The other two sons put a cloak across their shoulders and backed into the tent where Noah was to cover him, showing respect. In a figurative way, I do the same with my own mother. It's not that hard to do.
And if you could, you might try to forgive your parents for being human and for living long enough to need help. It might change your relationships with them dramatically. And be grateful for the fact that your father is still alive and around. I lost my own at the age of sixty-two and I'd give anything to see his stern self again.
I've had family members in every single war we've fought since before we were a country as well. Um, stop living in reflected glory and what you think the reality of war was. My own father served one tour in Korea during the Korean War and three tours in Vietnam, but I don't live in his and I don't assume the things you assume on such a tenuous thread as yours.
Speaking of PhDs, where did you get yours? And where did you become an expert on the issues that military members deal with? Somehow, I don't think that you're a member of either.
I did catch a couple questions in there, so let me clarify a couple things real quick...or at least attempt to. Hope you can follow my ADD-enhanced paragraphs below, as I review and see I jumped around a bit.
I was raised in a military family. My Father was military by career. He was very strict with most of us five children, but especially on me, my brother and my 2nd oldest sister. He yelled alot when we were kids, much as he does now...using intimidation to get what he wants. He is no especially hard on me and my 2nd oldest sister. I am the eldest son, and am the one that has been helping them for all of these years. My sister had a rough childhood and was always in alot of trouble. She moved down near them in order to also help. She doesn't have the finances, but she helps in many other ways, such as getting them to doctors appointments, helping them keep the rental house clean, etc. Everybody else is far away.
When my Dad retired, he and my Mother became Real Estate agents. My Father was not one that had an issue blending into society after the military. Financially, my parents were very successful for many years. They, and especially my Father, were very social. Back in the military days, we lived both on and off of base at my Father's various stations within the country. Therefore, Yes, I do know how military parents are firsthand.
Yes, I do believe most of my parent's current issues and attitudes stem from their losses. It had been evident since their bankruptcy all those years ago. Prior to Hurricane Irene, they were already in a bad way...my Mother already slept constantly, my Father was already demanding and agressive with his speech toward me, they were already very unhealthy. Irene didn't help, but wasn't the greatest cause of the attitude. It was just another blow. I stress, again, this Irene didn't start the problems. In fact, they were already extreme before Irene.
My parents lived with my Wife and I for about a year over 14 years ago, when my Father had a Heart Attack and Prostate cancer close together. That was at least a year before he retired, before they moved into our 2nd home. We haven't lived with them or vice versa since, and do not intend to going forward. They did intend to live in our 2nd home once we rebuild. That, now, depends on our decisions, because of all of the added stress.
None of this, regardless of what some here may think, is disrespect to my parents....either of them. I respect anybody who serves in our military, I respected the successes they both had throughout their lives. I do, however, disrespect the way my Father has been treating us, as well as my Sister, when all we do is try to help them.
I also love my parents very much. That would be why it hurts so much. If I didn't, it would be easy to send them on their way and eliminate the source of my pain.
I do appreciate insight, well meaning advice, wisdom or just a pat on the back. Please lay off the sarcastic criticism and open your eyes to a much bigger, more complex reality that is our lives.
I hope I didn't offend anybody, because I do appreciate your input.
And DTKemptll made the comment that his father feels entitled to everything and projects his nastiness on to all the children in the family. These are two symptoms of narcissism, yes, narcissism. Now when you get your PHD in psychology, I will listen to what you have to say. Until then you are just another person looking for answeres to your problems on this site. So stop bullying everyone else.
This does not change my opinion on not having your parents living with you, but it raises new questions about the kind of care he needs and how he can best get it, how to protect your mother, and what options should be considered. Please share more details with us!
Is it also possible to rebuild the house your parents lived in? Do you have insurance money to work with? It just seems to me given the nature of your relationship with them it would be a disaster to share the same physical space with them. Which is not to say you can't be generous and helpful, but exposing your wife to this family dynamic day after day doesn't sound healthy for your marriage. The is the primary relationship in your life, right?
I agree with Claudia that very often the caregiver situation reverses roles; that the children have to take on "parental" responsibilities. This is most especially true when dementia is part of the picture. Nothing you have said makes me think that you are at that point -- that you have to make decisions for your parents. But you are fully responsible for making decisions for yourself. You and your wife need to make decisions that effect your marriage together. What is her thinking on the subject of living with in-laws?
If your parents want/need help in figuring out their options if they don't live in the same house as you, by all means give them that help, with respect and love. I think Claudia's advice to separate yourselves from their drama is on target.
And, for what it is worth, I don't see what you have written as trashing your parents at all. You seem to be trying very hard to give us a clear background to your present situation. That seems to me exactly appropriate for this kind of discussion board. "Here is how I see my situation. I'm torn about what to do next. I'd like some input from others who have dealt with difficult family relationships." Perfectly in keeping with why this forum exists.
Please come back on and tell us what is going on, and whether you have made any decisions.
Good luck!
Uh huh... Those are real solutions, aren't they?
Even if the father indeed has it, PTSD didn't cause them to lose their belongings. Hurricane Irene did. Son and wife are building a brand new house and don't want his elder parents there. They're failing to even acknowledge that these parents had any significant losses at all, just as most of the people responding to this son. Son minimizes their losses, but their losses are significant. These are not wayward children, they're elders who have had a rough time. They deserve better than to be treated as such.
Sorry, but I don't feel sorry for the son or his wife. I do feel terrible for these elders.
Think PTSD and possibly related issues that make Dad’s behaviors difficult.
Virtually anyone who served in military, has some level of troubles with PTSD, regardless what it used to be called in whatever war they were in.
Dad's wife's ills certainly appear to substantiate what's been going on long term in that pair’s lives--it is complicated, and really should have some guidance from a good Social Worker.
There is help available, if military Dad would go for it, through the Veterans Administration. There has been a great increase in availability of support groups, counseling, and medical help to regain better behaviors.
But it might be too late in life to be helpful enough, to keep them in your home,
and, keeping them in your home might not be therapeutic for ANY involved.
This adult couple is in over their heads, regardless of why.
They need to have elder Mom and Dad OUT of their home--
WHY is actually not germane--the couple in the story above, owns their own place, and if the parents cannot behave themselves, they belong elsewhere.
NO moral guidelines require children to tolerate being abused--EVER.
Not verbally, not physically.
And, BTW, there is no good justificatoin for Hoarding; it is a health hazard for the entire property, as well as for neighbors in some extreme cases.
Repeated losses do not entitle anyone to hoard, nor to be abusive.
This couple need, and are asking for, help, starting here.
Where are the elders right now, while rebuilding is happening?
Might they continue to stay where they are currently [away]?
It sounds like they are currently living elsewhere; it is now that the adult caregivers are in a better position to continue them in that venue, or any other venue that is not at the adult children's house.
What's up with a certain poster flamingly running down the adult kids?
--Maybe the angry poster needs help, or fears losing something, and chose to inappropriately point their anger at this couple?
That is sad.
I really hope you find the help needed!
You know, maybe you should stop making assumptions based on who you know personally and pay attention to the details provided. You don't know these people, do you? All you've heard is one side trying to find a guiltless way out.
Let's see, you've called the father a narcissist with a sense of entitlement, but the truth is that you don't know squat about the father. You only know what a whiner has posted on a public message board to find support for not allowing his parents to live in a brand new house. How about seeing the father as an elderly human being with a sick wife who has lost at least half of everything he had in this world and now has to find a way to go on?
Spare me the comparison to your friend's life. Have they lost what these parents have? Have they come anywhere close? Somehow, I seriously doubt it.
My friend's mother who hoards has not been in the military, and maybe ex-military horaders are more organized and more disciplined, but I can say it would be hazardous to live with my friend's mother. My friend exerts tons of energy trying to keep her mother's place safe.
It just seems to me that the areas of conflict and concern existed long before Irene. The fact that the sibs have nothing to do with their father is a red flag to me, too.
This site is a safe place for whining. We don't have to suck it up on this forum -- we can let it all hang out. Maybe in our day-to-day lives that isn't a good idea, But it should be acceptable here, where we share our pain and discomforts. At least that is my opinion.
In any case, the original poster has not been back to comment or further explain or interact, so perhaps we are just all talking to each other.
Maybe it's time that the son stopped whining so much about his mother and father's life and sucked it up and dealt with it like the vast majority of military brats do. It's second nature to me and mine. He should be doggone grateful that his parents are still alive. I lost my own father over twenty years ago and I'd give anything to have his stern, gruff self back.
Your question makes no sense to anyone who actually has been there. You obviously think that all military are like your CIVILIAN father.
In my opinion, this is not going to make for a happy blended household. And while this may be very different from narcissism, some of the coping mechanisms such as settng boundaries and detaching may be useful here.
What you said inclines me to be more sympathetic to Father, but I am generally sympathetic to narcissists, too. I am still inclined to warn against continued living together. I do hope the relationships can come into a more loving balance, and that can be worked on with each party having their own home base.
My father thought of a military career when he married my mom. He was just like your father, controlling, verbally abuse, I never liked him.
I suppose everyone could blame their careers on their behavior but I don't think that is most likely the root issue. You need to live separately from your parents, especially if you lose your mother. It would be unbearable.
I wouldn't let them move back in until you are sure they're getting the help they need.
My Mom has many of the same problems,but not quite as bad. She was on anti-depresents for awhile and they helped, but she now says shes "cured".She is in assisted living. She is constantly shopping the catalogs and buys too much stuff, she doesn't have space for. She gives it to me to store and I either return it to the store or charity. She doesn't remember what she's bought.
You shouldn't feel guilty. They've made their own choices. They're adults and not your responsibility. A little tough love could actually help them.
Good luck in looking for solutions. Have you looked into assisted living? My mom had great freedom and support in that type setting.
Read "Military Brat: Childhood Inside The Fortress" by Mary Edwards Wertsch. You'll see that there are reasons why these men and women do the things they do and maybe find some much better ways to handle these issues.
Did you ever think that deep down your father feels like a failure now that he is dependent upon you and your wife for a home? Or that he's scared to death because he and your mom have had financial difficulties and now have all the normal issues of aging on top of that? Have you ever once thought that maybe, just maybe, he lost himself when he left the military because he, who was a part of a very rigid organization, doesn't know how to act in a civilian society where nothing is absolutely wrong any longer? You spend your life working and sacrificing and then, once you've gone as far in the military as your rank and/or age allows, you're sent off with an ID card, a retirement that doesn't nearly reflect all that you gave and a certificate for your wife thanking her for her sacrifice. You've served your purpose, you've given your all and now, you have to reinvent everything about you in order to fit into a civilian life.
Some people do it well, but most struggle with it, so what do they do? They go to work in a government job or they find work with a defense contractor to make the transition easier. And some struggle with that literally for the rest of their lives and never fully make the transition.
If you discuss with them what terms you must have them agree to in order for them to move back in with you, and they agree, perhaps you could give it another try. One thing for sure, NO MORE HOARDING/collecting. That would have to be firm. And it sounds as though your Dad doesn't actually complain to you. So who cares if he complains to other people. I'd just ignore it like your Mom does, and consider the source. He sounds like an unhappy person who likes to dwell on the negatives rather than the positives, and most likely will never change. Your Mom has accepted it all these years, so you would just have to accept it too, and not hold a grudge against him for the way he is. (As long as he doesn't become abusive to you and your wife, of course.) If you could get this right in your mind, prior to giving them another chance, things might be better. If you think you can't do it, I would just tell them that you are unwilling to go through more years of frustration and his unwillingness to show gratitude and make an effort at peaceful existence, and you can't let them move back in with you. It will be hard, because it sounds like they think you're all going to go on the way you were. But, you really need to get it solved before they get back in your home.
I wish you the very best of luck. You and your wife sound like kind hearted people, and your parents are very fortunate to have you!!