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What if our elders aren't all crazy. Could it be being treated like children by their children causes them to act out? I am laughing after having read a letter to my mother from my grandmother that said just that. Perhaps we should just listen
My mom still blames me for her abusive behavior, that she inflicted on my sister and me as children. Now we blame the victim? My mom is irrational. That's my fault? Or I cause it? Hard to believe. I didn't make her hit my Dad, or scream at him, or starve the poor man inflicted with Alzheimer's. I didn't make her lie to him, or to her Physicians. Which part did I cause?
When she goes to the bank to learn about her assets, and their value, and the amount in their accounts, and asks to have them explain to her about a CD. 15 minutes later she asks, "What's a CD?" Uh, didn't we just explain it to you?
I could give you so many examples. Mom would love to point the finger at her husband, her children, the neighbor, her school principal, the parents of the school children she taught. It's always someone else's fault. Never taking personal responsibility. It wasn't her addictions, unrealistic expectations, or paranoia... So, no. We don't create it. We, as children can cause heartache. But don't ever buy into the lie that we are to blame. At least, not in my family.
I actually was reading an article about the subject, not speaking about specific people. I think we can all be "crazymakers" like my grandmother says if the circumstances are right. I am looking to share thoughts on the subject with others who might be asking the same question. I am feeling quite reflective these last days of summer and hope to have a group discussion who think like me. I used to think when I was a teenager that my mom went out of her way to make me crazy, now as a mom I get it.
I am deeply sorry for anyone who feels they have an actual crazy parent, this question might not have set too well but was not personal. No doubt young crazy people become old crazy people and credit is due to anyone dealing with that.
Dear Annlidiot, that was sweet of you to clarify, and offer condolences. I think I see your perspective, from a mother/daughter point of view, especially involving teenagers. Why is it that parents struggle with their children at times, and visa versa? Hmmmmmm...age old question. Thank you for your sensitivity to those struggling with less than ideal situations. I guess those who only have "normal" struggles can count their blessings. Keep being reflective, because it is a great subject, and nice to think about these things, and bounce ideas back and forth. I hope you find a group of like-minded individuals that's a good fit for you. Thank you for your humble reply. You are a gracious lady.
I also think this is interesting. As part time helper of my mother (my father has dementia and Parkinsons) I've been trying my best not to fall into the role of bossy older daughter with her. It may be too late for my father, but I recognise the risk of driving my bright, capable mother into infantilism by taking control, or into craziness by denying who I am and just taking orders. It's been quite hard to walk the line, I'm sorry to say. I suppose because I am affected by the situation too, and have my own issues.
Still, it's hard to step back into a parental relationship when it's been toxic in the past. It's hard to let the past go, in fact. I was talking to someone whose mother had always been an unpleasant drunk, but whose dementia has made her forget she likes alchohol. She has turned into a sweet and charming old lady, but some of the family, understandably, find this change very hard to handle.
Perhaps that's what dementia sometimes allows: a wiping of the slate.
Anyway, apart from organic causes, I sometimes think that if I was my father and had been struggling with Parkinson's and depression in front of the television for 20 years I'd be rolling around on floors and peeing into laundry baskets too, by now.
Otehrwise, I know people of people who've had dementia and been happy about it. My friend's great aunt used to wake in her care home every morning convinced that she had just checked into the Ritz. And I heard that my old next-door neighbour went into a care home, and forgot totally who her family were, but apparently enjoyed herself thoroughly. But she was always a positive and optimistic sort of person.
Dear t, it is refreshing to read your post, which brings balance to this sensitive issue. It is difficult to assume a Cargiving role for a parents, and you show a willingness to be sensitive to this with your parents, while remaining alert to the danger of having it swing too far in the wrong direction. Perhaps that was the intent of this thread? It's something we all need to be sensitive to, and unfortunately, perhaps a real possibility at times. Thanks for reminding us. I count you as one of those hero angel Caregivers.
And God bless the ones who can do it with a positive, joy-filled attitude. You, too, are heroes! Please pray for the rest of those who struggle greatly, while trying to provide care under less than ideal circumstances. They need your support.
I was a bit put off by this thread, at first, a feeling somewhat defensive. (Guess that's from growing up under very negative circumstances.) But by God's grace, I can now care for my parents differently, with a forgiving approach, not a revengeful one, despite the past. This takes tremendous strength beyond ourselves, at times. Thanks for the reminder that we don't want to add to a parent's demise, under the weight they may sometimes carry, becoming dependent and declining physically or cognitively. What a sensitive line this is. For those of you who do it with joy, what an example you are to the rest of us who struggle. Thanks for the reminder to be sensitive to, and respectful of our elders.
I'm actually a bit surprised at the immediate reaction to my question. I know that everyone has their own reasons for reading the posts on this board but I can't help but wonder at the comments about this being such a sensitive subject, it was after a general question.
I was hoping that one of the experts listed on the board would reply to my question and perhaps shed some light on how to walk the fine line between caring for a parent without projecting old baggage from the past. Normal or not, it is something I and my friends wrestle with.
I understand that some who are perhaps isolated and rely on this board more than others. My comments are not directed at them, nor do I wish to intrude on how they choose to find enjoyment and support. I think there is room for all of us at the inn, and I wish them peace.
We all must try hard not to treat our parents like children. I believe that deeply, and I feel many elders act out when they feel they are treated that way. That's why I don't like terms like "parenting our parents," even though it often seems like that is what we do. This “self-talk” can send us into “crazy making behavior.” So, it’s good that was brought up.
But - and many of you have made this wonderfully clear - many people were raised by abusive, addicted parents, and this has made the complicated caregiving relationship even harder. All caregivers who are doing what they feel is best for their care receivers are heroes, but to me, those of you who are doing the best you can with such difficult backgrounds are amazing beyond belief. Many people, under those circumstances, can't do it all and have to turn their parents over to a court appointed guardian. That is okay, too. If they can't handle it, it's understandable.
But you who are doing what you are under such difficult conditions are exceptional. You won't be perfect, as none of us do this perfectly. But you are something special.
When I think back on all seven of my elders, there are many things I'd do better. But there are many things I'd do better if I could go back as a mother. Yet, for everyone I've cared for - elders and children - I did the best I could at the time. That's what you all are doing. You are doing the best you can with the circumstances you’ve been given.
While I was caring for my mother for two weeks I had to remind myself she was an adult and what right did I have telling her it was time to eat and did try to ask if she was ready to eat and not to foll her plate but to put small portions on a serving plate and let her help herself and to keep pudding in the fridge in case that is all she wanted to eat some-it was very different than caring for my husband and had to learn as I went along it was a hard role to learn.
Great insight, Austin, as always. Yes, it's very different when you care for a parent than when you care for a spouse. Your relationship has always been a different one, and that doesn't change when you become a caregiver. You bring different "baggage," as well.
Even among mentally healthy families there appears to be some sort of role reversal that takes place at the point when a parent's health begins to deteriorate. Mom begins to forget important things like taking medicine or keeping doctor appointments. At first, Daughter gently reminds mom about these things. After the fifth event, daughter gets a little more forceful in her reminders and mom gets a little more feisty in resisting. Depending on the temperament of each, the ultimate result may be ugly. And it is not too different from the frustration a good parent faces in dealing with a wayward teenager. So my answer to the question posed is NO we are not creating the crazy behavior we are writing about. It is just a fact of life. However, if our family interaction was dysfunctional from the beginning, than the crazy behavior was already there. Our writing about it is only the result of self reflection and our desire for a better yesterday.
Amazing the different takes on my question. As a writer, I have always be amazed at the wonderful diversity that the internet encourages. Certainly with all of the different viewpoints there is no one answer. Yes we may wish that our parents were the way they were, or be so burned out by past behaviour that nothing else matters. No right or wrong - for each of us the question could be straightforward or something that must be wrestled with in private reflection.
I am a bit confused by CKover13's comment, but sure - my name does say it all. I chose to use my name rather than a clever psudonym, so I guess that makes me.
Oh goodness of course we're not the reason for their behaviour !!! They are like naughty children - be it the effect of the medication or of the disease which causes so much frustration! They can't help it - have no idea what their saying or doing most of the time.
It helps if you keep your expections low and concentrate on the main problem-like getting them to eat and let other things go and remember you can not force them to do anything
It is so fascinating after reading each persons answer to go back and read their profiles, and comments on others questions. It would seem that our individual experiences do determine our answers and advice to others on this board. Not a bad thing, mind you but I wonder where are the experts on this introspective topic? I'd like to hear from a geriatric psychologist or other eldercare expert who is a bit removed from the day to day that we live as caregivers for our elders
You've got a good point, Annlidiot. I’d like to expand on it, given the restrictions of such a format as this.
There are so many opinions on this subject that, taken as whole, there seems to be a good mix. A lot can be learned from a geriatric psychologist or any professional, yet the wisest I've man of the profession I've ever known said to me, "We (professionals) diagnose and we advise, and then we turn them (in this case the people diagnosed with dementia) over to you (the caregivers).
I don't think he was diminishing the role his profession plays (he died of cancer in his late 40s. His death deprived our area of one of the finest and most compassionate people to care for those with dementia, and their families). He just liked to make the point that caregivers must deal with day to day challenges, dragging along family baggage as they try to cope with their parents' illness. To him, the caregivers were heroes.
Dr. Cheryl Woodson, a geriatrician. and a daughter/caregiver wrote a wonderful book titled, "To Survive Caregivng." Her no-nonsense advice and her insight into the tug-of-war between her "professional side" and her "daughter side" makes this a very valuable book (available on Amazon). During her caregiving years, her two sides didn’t always agree though she respected both of her roles.
It would be nice to have the input here of a psychologist, but I doubt many would venture to say which incident described was a result of what action, since they couldn't know, from these brief discussions, the unbiased family dynamics.
So, the lively discussion goes on, based on each person's experience and very biased opinion. I think people will always pick and choose that which makes sense to them. And they certainly won’t agree. But talking it out seems to be beneficial. In the end, if the problems are severe, people should seek private, professional help.
Who knows? Maybe a brave geriatric psychologist will hop on this discussion. It certainly would be fun to read.
I think it's from being around them all of our lives it makes us biased in certain areas and creates a little more insanity. I make a living as a caregiver and I am always on a mellow even keel with my clients. With my dad, I feel like I want to blow up half the time. When HE tells me to get out of his room, leave him alone- whatever it brings me back to 16 when he wouldn't allow me an ounce of privacy. I have a "how dare you!" attitude towards a lot of things.Plus he was always a little crazy--very paranoid, self righteous, a chronic liar--being well aware of all that for many years, now it's more intensified bad behavior that goes with the disease. It's frustrating. Plus I'm sure he has the same attitude in "how dare I" tell him what to do---vicious circle there.Although our hearts are in the right place, sometimes I wonder if it is a good idea for a child to care for a parent long term. I know I am slowly feeling bits of my own sanity creeping away.
You hit the nail on the head. Every group of professionals I've spoken to have said something to the effect that "it's so different with my own father/mother." They have their side as a doctor, social worker, nurse or administrator and they are very good at what they do. But when faced with their own family, the family dynamics are going to be part of it, and even they can't get around that.
It's nearly always good to get advice from people schooled in these areas. It can be very valuable. However, I've heard any number say that they are humbled and changed once they have been in the position of a family caregiver themselves. And they approach it with a ton of education.
So, beyond - you fit right in : ) Sigh. We are all human.
Carol, thanks for the book recommendations and your thoughts on the subject. It would be helpful if there was a reading list on the site - - I am willing to bet there are many books that could be recommended. I checked our library the other day and there is no section on caregiving - online it seems that everyone is an expert, but how to choose the ones that are worth reading?
No matter of how we feel, as adults, adult children, caregivers, or even just plain burned out & tired people it is nice to hear from someone who has been there & done that; both sides of the fence. I was watching a pbs show on kidney failure and they included two caregiver advocates and an actual caregiver on the panel with the doctors! It was such a treat to see the doctors agree that they rarely if ever consider the caregiver. One of them even apologized about it. There is so little information, and although we all know our own parents best, it is still nice to hear real experts. There was a seminar at our local senior center, but I and my friends who went expecting answers were treated to a thinly veiled sales pitch by a home heath agency owner and her certified financial planner / re agent husband.
All I am trying to say is that I KNOW already what I feel - I am searching for answers now with an eye to the future that is fast approaching for my family. I am looking for the answers I cannot find because of my personal blindspot - the one we all have when dealing with family. Thank you so much, maybe a brave psychologist will add their opinon to the conversation without trying to co-opt the converstion into a personal diagnosis (just like the poor beleagured doctor at the picnic!)
I've reviewed many books by different professionals and some are truly wonderful. None will appeal to everyone but Dr. Woodson's is good. As to what makes an expert, I think experience does. A professional needs the practical education. When we are lucky, we meet with someone who has both, and recognizes both sides of themselves. These people are rare.
I think doctors are finally becoming aware that caregivers aren't just a pain in the neck, getting in their way while they want to quickly do their jobs. Many seem to be catching on to the fact that the caregiver should be part of the team, but not all are there yet.
There's another book that I reviewed that was excellent – this one by a male doctor/caregiver. He tells much of his life growing up so it is very revealing as to his "blind spots" as a son and the struggle of being both son and doctor to his parents. He is the kind of doctor we all wish our elders had, compassionate and understanding of the elders’ issues. He recognizes openly that as a son, everything was much harder and decisions were much less clear.
The book is "Memory Lessons: A doctor's story" by Jerald Winakur.
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My mom still blames me for her abusive behavior, that she inflicted on my sister and me as children. Now we blame the victim? My mom is irrational. That's my fault? Or I cause it? Hard to believe. I didn't make her hit my Dad, or scream at him, or starve the poor man inflicted with Alzheimer's. I didn't make her lie to him, or to her Physicians. Which part did I cause?
When she goes to the bank to learn about her assets, and their value, and the amount in their accounts, and asks to have them explain to her about a CD. 15 minutes later she asks, "What's a CD?" Uh, didn't we just explain it to you?
I could give you so many examples. Mom would love to point the finger at her husband, her children, the neighbor, her school principal, the parents of the school children she taught. It's always someone else's fault. Never taking personal responsibility. It wasn't her addictions, unrealistic expectations, or paranoia... So, no. We don't create it. We, as children can cause heartache. But don't ever buy into the lie that we are to blame. At least, not in my family.
I am deeply sorry for anyone who feels they have an actual crazy parent, this question might not have set too well but was not personal. No doubt young crazy people become old crazy people and credit is due to anyone dealing with that.
Still, it's hard to step back into a parental relationship when it's been toxic in the past. It's hard to let the past go, in fact. I was talking to someone whose mother had always been an unpleasant drunk, but whose dementia has made her forget she likes alchohol. She has turned into a sweet and charming old lady, but some of the family, understandably, find this change very hard to handle.
Perhaps that's what dementia sometimes allows: a wiping of the slate.
Anyway, apart from organic causes, I sometimes think that if I was my father and had been struggling with Parkinson's and depression in front of the television for 20 years I'd be rolling around on floors and peeing into laundry baskets too, by now.
Otehrwise, I know people of people who've had dementia and been happy about it. My friend's great aunt used to wake in her care home every morning convinced that she had just checked into the Ritz. And I heard that my old next-door neighbour went into a care home, and forgot totally who her family were, but apparently enjoyed herself thoroughly. But she was always a positive and optimistic sort of person.
And God bless the ones who can do it with a positive, joy-filled attitude. You, too, are heroes! Please pray for the rest of those who struggle greatly, while trying to provide care under less than ideal circumstances. They need your support.
I was a bit put off by this thread, at first, a feeling somewhat defensive. (Guess that's from growing up under very negative circumstances.) But by God's grace, I can now care for my parents differently, with a forgiving approach, not a revengeful one, despite the past. This takes tremendous strength beyond ourselves, at times. Thanks for the reminder that we don't want to add to a parent's demise, under the weight they may sometimes carry, becoming dependent and declining physically or cognitively. What a sensitive line this is. For those of you who do it with joy, what an example you are to the rest of us who struggle. Thanks for the reminder to be sensitive to, and respectful of our elders.
I was hoping that one of the experts listed on the board would reply to my question and perhaps shed some light on how to walk the fine line between caring for a parent without projecting old baggage from the past. Normal or not, it is something I and my friends wrestle with.
I understand that some who are perhaps isolated and rely on this board more than others. My comments are not directed at them, nor do I wish to intrude on how they choose to find enjoyment and support. I think there is room for all of us at the inn, and I wish them peace.
We all must try hard not to treat our parents like children. I believe that deeply, and I feel many elders act out when they feel they are treated that way. That's why I don't like terms like "parenting our parents," even though it often seems like that is what we do. This “self-talk” can send us into “crazy making behavior.” So, it’s good that was brought up.
But - and many of you have made this wonderfully clear - many people were raised by abusive, addicted parents, and this has made the complicated caregiving relationship even harder. All caregivers who are doing what they feel is best for their care receivers are heroes, but to me, those of you who are doing the best you can with such difficult backgrounds are amazing beyond belief. Many people, under those circumstances, can't do it all and have to turn their parents over to a court appointed guardian. That is okay, too. If they can't handle it, it's understandable.
But you who are doing what you are under such difficult conditions are exceptional. You won't be perfect, as none of us do this perfectly. But you are something special.
When I think back on all seven of my elders, there are many things I'd do better. But there are many things I'd do better if I could go back as a mother. Yet, for everyone I've cared for - elders and children - I did the best I could at the time. That's what you all are doing. You are doing the best you can with the circumstances you’ve been given.
Hugs to you all. I'm honored to "know" you.
Carol
Thanks for the response,
Carol
I am a bit confused by CKover13's comment, but sure - my name does say it all. I chose to use my name rather than a clever psudonym, so I guess that makes me.
Ann Lidiot
There are so many opinions on this subject that, taken as whole, there seems to be a good mix. A lot can be learned from a geriatric psychologist or any professional, yet the wisest I've man of the profession I've ever known said to me, "We (professionals) diagnose and we advise, and then we turn them (in this case the people diagnosed with dementia) over to you (the caregivers).
I don't think he was diminishing the role his profession plays (he died of cancer in his late 40s. His death deprived our area of one of the finest and most compassionate people to care for those with dementia, and their families). He just liked to make the point that caregivers must deal with day to day challenges, dragging along family baggage as they try to cope with their parents' illness. To him, the caregivers were heroes.
Dr. Cheryl Woodson, a geriatrician. and a daughter/caregiver wrote a wonderful book titled, "To Survive Caregivng." Her no-nonsense advice and her insight into the tug-of-war between her "professional side" and her "daughter side" makes this a very valuable book (available on Amazon). During her caregiving years, her two sides didn’t always agree though she respected both of her roles.
It would be nice to have the input here of a psychologist, but I doubt many would venture to say which incident described was a result of what action, since they couldn't know, from these brief discussions, the unbiased family dynamics.
So, the lively discussion goes on, based on each person's experience and very biased opinion. I think people will always pick and choose that which makes sense to them. And they certainly won’t agree. But talking it out seems to be beneficial. In the end, if the problems are severe, people should seek private, professional help.
Who knows? Maybe a brave geriatric psychologist will hop on this discussion. It certainly would be fun to read.
It's nearly always good to get advice from people schooled in these areas. It can be very valuable. However, I've heard any number say that they are humbled and changed once they have been in the position of a family caregiver themselves. And they approach it with a ton of education.
So, beyond - you fit right in : ) Sigh. We are all human.
No matter of how we feel, as adults, adult children, caregivers, or even just plain burned out & tired people it is nice to hear from someone who has been there & done that; both sides of the fence. I was watching a pbs show on kidney failure and they included two caregiver advocates and an actual caregiver on the panel with the doctors! It was such a treat to see the doctors agree that they rarely if ever consider the caregiver. One of them even apologized about it. There is so little information, and although we all know our own parents best, it is still nice to hear real experts. There was a seminar at our local senior center, but I and my friends who went expecting answers were treated to a thinly veiled sales pitch by a home heath agency owner and her certified financial planner / re agent husband.
All I am trying to say is that I KNOW already what I feel - I am searching for answers now with an eye to the future that is fast approaching for my family. I am looking for the answers I cannot find because of my personal blindspot - the one we all have when dealing with family. Thank you so much, maybe a brave psychologist will add their opinon to the conversation without trying to co-opt the converstion into a personal diagnosis (just like the poor beleagured doctor at the picnic!)
I think doctors are finally becoming aware that caregivers aren't just a pain in the neck, getting in their way while they want to quickly do their jobs. Many seem to be catching on to the fact that the caregiver should be part of the team, but not all are there yet.
There's another book that I reviewed that was excellent – this one by a male doctor/caregiver. He tells much of his life growing up so it is very revealing as to his "blind spots" as a son and the struggle of being both son and doctor to his parents. He is the kind of doctor we all wish our elders had, compassionate and understanding of the elders’ issues. He recognizes openly that as a son, everything was much harder and decisions were much less clear.
The book is "Memory Lessons: A doctor's story" by Jerald Winakur.
I like your inquiring and open mind.
Carol