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Yeah, PirateGal, I don't know how you do it! Award and medal of honor for you!!! Wow. I hear you. We have to deal with things repeatedly with FIL, and it does get old. But then we get to walk out of the nursing home. This is all so wearying. Heaven's sounding sweeter all the time.
I certainly can't imagine dealing with drama from a 98 year old. That would really be maddening.
Hero award for many of you! Here's your invitation: a group hug for our ongoing saga! Let the party continue. Or...shall we all book a cruise?
Well, was that a Freudian slip or what? I wrote: "I have personality disorders." What I meant to say was, I HATE personality disorders. I don't think I do, but perhaps there's one hiding somewhere...and if so, please don't tell me. LOL Just send me to the beach!!!
Having been around personality disorders for so long, it is possible that you may have picked up one or two of their fleas (traites), but that does not mean you have any full disorder. A bottle or so of wine, a few good waves in the ocean, and rest on the beach would take care of any fleas. :)
I can't drink alcohol right now, but if I could, I would. add one more thing for such a get away. If Catalina did not have some licensed people in Ashiatsu Oriental Bar Therapy, I would fly one or two in. This deep tissue massage technique relaxes without causing the pain that traditional deep tissue massages do. When I had more freedom that I do now and served on a state board of directors for an organization, I'd get one of these 90 minute massages after being in a meeting from 9 am -4pm, after which I'd check in the hotel and sleep or just continue enjoying relaxing until I fell asleep till it was very close to check out time!
Oh a regular massage for me is just fine or even one of them pedicure massage chairs...lol...and throw in a pedi...and a manicure and a mimosa (champ/orange j)
Sometimes those traits do wear off on you,,,and you have to be careful to make sure ya shrug them off...like fleas off a dog
Any kind of break would work for me - we just had snow again -inches of it. Ocean waves, a beach, music... don't drink much but a diet soda goes down well. A massage sounds great!
Speaking about picking up traits, I have had to unlearn some behaviours learned at home in childhood and replace them. As I grew up I looked around at people who I thought had normal behaviour and learned from them - not sure I have them all yet! ;)
All of life is a process, and none of us is perfect. But, that you care, and want to do right, says a lot. It's the ones who don't think they have any problems that scare me (especially if they're glaring).
This is a great help and support-thanks to all of you. I especially appreciate the reminder to step back and assess whether its really an emergency. Don't know about BPD's, but NPDs (my mother is undiagnosed, but ALL the criteria fits to a T) are wily-everything is an "emergency" because everything is about THEM. Its so easy to be sucked back into their drama. I too have just "walked away" from something I had been doing for my mother and she is furious. It was a result of her actions and disrespect of me and she will have to handle it herself from now on by hiring someone. I very much needed this post for affirmation as she continues to try to hoover me back; Thanks all.
I heard a very accurate statement in a pastor's prayer one time, "and we pray for those who do not think they have any needs for they have the greatest needs of all."
Nins, you need to back away, and nurture your own spirit. We support you in that. God bless you for all you've done. Trust your instincts on your observations. If those symptoms fit your mom, than thank God for opening your eyes. Now, ask him to guide you in caring for you and your mom. Time to make some positive changes for YOU!
Thanks Sis. I do care about mother and for myself too. I have found that when I start doing things for people because I am feeling sorry for them it spells trouble and I have to check myself for that and change my course of action to avoid being "hoovered" in.
nins - so glad you have taken a stand. I have just reviewed the characteristics of NPD and they fit mother very well. She was diagnosed this past year as BPD - I would say she is probably a mix of BPD and NPD. She has some admirable characterictics and has accomplished some things of value in her life, but has shredded people (particularly my father and I - my sister is the "golden girl") all along with her anger, negativity and derogatory comments. She never sees her own responsibility in a relationship - only what others "should" do for her and how they fall short of that. I have made some progress in this in the past few years by stating clearly and often that I have limitations - physical, emotional, financial etc and that I have to be careful not to exceed those. On the occasions that I have exceeded them I let her know and keep repeating it as necessary - that my arm is sore or my allergies have acted up, or my retirement budget will not allow me monthly visits to her (she lives in another city by choice and I am thankful for the distance) and so on. Finally this seerms to have sunk in to a degree. One thing that seemed to help her accept this is me telling her that often it is not that I do not want to help her as much as she wants but that I cannot due to my own limitations. Sometimes these limitations are strictly my needs for a life of my own not dominated by her. She understands health and financial limitations. I haven't tackled emotional ones - not sure she has the ability to understand those. After the last crisis - a few weeks ago, and subsequently very little contact on my part, I am finally "surfacing" and stepping back and revising what I can do and still maintain my own emotional health. For me, as she ages and needs more help, it is a matter of maintaining a balance of my responsibilities to myself and to her and I find that that is not easy to accomplish. I have recently emailed her and told her what I can/will and cannot/will not do as regards her impending move to a new residence. I have suggested options (paid help) for what I cannot/will not do and she seems to have accepted that. I write to her to inform her in a rather impersonal way and that also seems to work.
crowe - yes - those who think they are above the rest of us...
At times I do wonder why God chose this path for me.
Your mother and my MIL must be identical twins. BPD has a very strong narcissistic streak in it. Your mother, like all BPD moms, has split your sister into all white and you, it sounds, into all black. That's their black/white thinking because to them there is no gray. This is part of their self-protection, and self-projection technique to avoid having to really see themselves as they truly are.
The thing is, the rest of us can see it, and it's not a pretty picture. Lord, keep me from becoming like that! I want to be a blessing to others, but not a door mat to those who will abuse. I thank God for deliverance, and common sense, and compassion, also for a strong back bone, and good walking shoes. Love those boundaries, and distance!
Hi crowe - twins - sorry to hear that - it makes for a life of turmoil. How did your husband survive? He is fortunate to have you. I unhappily married someone with similar characteristics as mother, and, thankfully, am finished with that and now have a delightful man in my life who is supportive and has none of these characteristics - a sign of my growth.
Black and white - yes - and I was the black sheep most of my life and wondered what I had done to deserve it, realizing later that it was her not me. Mother finds people who initially she thinks are the "answer to everything" then this view changes 180 degrees when they do not agree with all she says. Nowadays there is an increasing element of paranoia in there too. In my view, my sister uses my mother and has no compassion for her needs at all. She has no intention of doing anything to help and 15 years ago, to my surprise, my mother decided to move closer to me as she felt my sister would not help her and she (mother) would need help as she aged. I told her at that time I would do what I could. I was never close to my mum - she took vacations with my sister - often paid for by my mother and so on. Being in that close contact would never be a vacation for me!!!! This has continued till about 10 years ago, when, after my sister's husband died, some of her negative feelings towards mother surfaced and all has not been well in paradise since, though my sister continues to visit and take advantage. I stay in a (cheap) hotel when I visit which keeps my sanity and limits the length of my visits. My mother, in the past few months has praised me more than ever in my life and continually says how much she appreciates what I am doing for her. It does not mean she is an easy person for me to deal with, but the appreciation helps. I receive it knowing, that although part of it is undoubtedly sincere, there is likely an aspect of manipulation in it too. We have been able to have some enjoyable meals together, the memories of which I treasure, as within every child is the natural and healthy desire to have a good relationship with his/her parents and any evidence of that is powerful. On the other hand, the evidence of the illness/condition is there too and a powerful deterrent to getting too close.
I suppose the black/white thinking is self protective - they certainly have very little insight into themselves and others are always the reason for their problems. I have found her easier (not easy) to deal with as I accept that is how she is "wired" and that it is likely genetic, I see in the literature that sexual abuse in childhood may be a factor. I am not aware that she experienced that, though she definitely has some weird attitudes toiwards sex.
joy Emjo, You seem to be coming to terms really well with your relationship with your mother. I so wish I could find some middle ground with mine-wish WE could find some way to enjoy one another in ANY way at all. We live in the same house (big huge mistake on my part-was hoovered into getting her out of rehab, caring for her for months and then told to "get lost". Admittedly, I was the one living in lala land-didn't have enough recall of what a monster she is because I'd been away a long while.) The hardest part for me is that I feel I have to be constantly on my guard in order to protect myself and stand up against her manipulations. This is SO against my nature and very stressful.
Nins, I feel for you. It is different when we are the caregiver. I did not remember mom being so bad. But my time with her was always limited. So who would guess that being nice to mom would work against me? Wow! That doesn't make sense. But she is the problem, and not me. I am now on the path of peace, because I don't have to do it anymore. Too bad I didn't do this sooner, and thought it was my responsibility to help her. She didn't like it, and it was a nightmare for me. No appreciation at all. Her loss. My gain. God saw and he knows, and ultimately, my reward comes from him. Hot coals were heaped on mom's head, and she didn't even know it. Nothing worse than dealing with a bitter spirit. Glad that today it's not mine. But it's taken a while to work through the pain to forgiveness. Mom may never see that day. She's all about being a victim, and mad at others for it. We all choose our own path. Some don't make the right choices.
My FIL did not survive for my MIL could not have married a normal man. Instead she married a very shy man who I think one or both of his parents took advatage of which led to him becoming my MIL's dominated slave. I mean this literally. I've seen henpecked but this man was in bondage. All she didn't have was a real wip and chains! I remember one Father's Day when his wife was enraged that he ordered ice tea to drink without her permission. Plus, when I came along as the SIL, I did get blamed for him acting 'rebellious' (normal) in his latter years which I took as a compliment. However, over time I succomed to walking on eggshells myself but never to the degree that he did.
We once thought that all persons with BPD were sexually abused. However, more and more we are finding this is not always so. There does seem to be a genetic factor in this but it's not determinitive. One proposed new name for BPD is 'emotional de-regulation' which fits well.
My MIL has some weird ideas about sex and much hatred toward men for something her younger brother's did to her on the farm out behind the barn. It sounds like 'playing doctor' got out of hand.
More often than sexual abuse is the combination of a narcissistic mother with a weak passive father and this social/psychological disease gets passed down from one generationt to another as a learned personality disorder until someone breaks the chain by getting some serious therapy, going through DBT, getting on meds, and sticking with the battle until they become more regulated. Strangly enough, the parent dynamic that I just described is very often the case with ssa male and female children of the family, and sometimes people with BPD have some orientation confusion.
Sis, People like that are said to live in OZ and it an't Kansas anymore in that emotinally impulsive world! In that sense of the phrasiology, I'm glad you have said in Kansas when your mom has left for Oz. Pity the cowardly lion, the tin man, and the scare crow that often take the journey with them and then look for the wizard to get them home when the power of choosing healthy boundaries is the only way home.
Far too often people who grow up in such homes swear they will never marry someone like that, but they are familiar with it and too often accidently end up chosing that sort of person for a mate. The same thing too often takes place with people who divorce a person with BPD for very often unless you look at why you were attracted to them, you very well might marry the same kind of person again.
Yes Crowe well said. I married my mother (although much milder and a lot less nuts), had 3 wonderful kids with him and then divorced him. I didn't really realize HOW Much like my mother he was until recently, only that I didn't like our "all about him" thing. Though I don't for a moment regret my kids, I wish I had had the ability to choose someone who honored ME and allowed me to honor HIM in a loving and rational way. I'm just now beginning to see how this stuff rolls downhill.
Like a therapist told my wife, 'the chain can stop with you" At almost 53, I can see why I made many choices that I did in light of my family of origin.
Basically, I married someone much like my mother, almost like I was looking for a 'mother type' who would meet my emotional needs which my mother didn't instead of using me to meet her emotional needs, and yes she is a bit older than I am.
But thankfully unlike my mother, my wife after several years of marriage later got thereapy, took DBT twice and has been on meds ever since. Otherwise, I don't believe we would be married today. While she's not totally healed, and who is, she is stable which has been much better since she set boundaries with her sick 'mommy dearest' and stoped hiding behind my pants to fight her battles in 2005. Now I and the boys feel like she much more fully present with us as a family instead of being so absorbed by her mom. Much of this change began when I started setting boundaries in the fall of 2003.
I'm not totally where I need to be as far as boundaries, but I have made progress.Otherwise, one therapist told me, without continuing to work on boundaries I would become just like my FIL (who died 14 year's ago-peace at last), my weak and very dominated date, and my weak, drunked excuse of a step-dad.
Now, I also understand why my mother never liked my MIL. They were too much alike, just one had a master's degree and the other a high school diploma. An educated person with a personality disorder can really be slick.
My therapist and I have been working on all these and their related issues for 5 years which is very exhausting. He said that I've done so much work in that area that I need to lighten up and enjoy life more. Speaking of lightening up, my wife and I have started on the South Beach dite which I really need since I'm morbidly obese and earlier I tried this diet by myself, lost a lot, but did not stick with it.
Crowe- "The chain can stop with you"-those are great words to live by in this situation. My kids (25, 23, 19) and I are completely different with one another. I sincerely hope I gave them better, if not perfect underpinnings for their lives. I do wish I had the means to get therapy as you have. I have support, but laypersons do not quite seem to fathom what it is like to live with these NPD people. They see what is on the surface and as you say the educated NPD is a very difficult. My mother is German, has a classical education, and part of a law degree. She is extremely smart and clever. Ever since I can remember she has considered herself "above" intellectually as well as considering an American education/degree (which I have) to be inferior. If people cannot quote Goethe, Ovid, etc., they can be "dismissed" as uneducated and shallow. In fact Americans themselves are shallow compared to Europeans in her eyes-mere children. She considers me to be one of those she can dismiss, as well as healthcare practitioners, social workers etc. SHE knows it all, and considers those whom she's not currently trying to manipulate into doing something for her idiots, but she doesn't generally show her distain, unless it is when she occasionally "goes off" on someone. Though she is known in the neighborhood for these episodes she manages to never indulge in them in front of anyone of power or authority.. What people don't understand is that she's been "going off" on me that way all my life in private. Very few people have witnessed this. Like you say, its a cyclone-she goes off, which usually consists of the most incredible accusations and suspicions of my motives, then its my charachter, then my lack of intelligence, and finally my physical appearance. If I rebut her in any way or become upset then I am "oversensitive and stupid"and she retreats and refuses to speak any further. She will turn her face away and drum her fingers... I guess thats the part where she steps out of the "eye". Ok enough ranting for the moment. I am glad you are taking a bit of time for yourself and getting healthy Crowe. My thanks for all your help.
Oh no-I just read my own post and see that I'm sounding pretty NPD myself! A year ago I wouldn't even have been thinking about this stuff because I didn't have to LIVE with it -had a life!
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I certainly can't imagine dealing with drama from a 98 year old. That would really be maddening.
Hero award for many of you! Here's your invitation: a group hug for our ongoing saga! Let the party continue. Or...shall we all book a cruise?
Here's an idea. We can all go to Second Life, make our own avtar and party together in second life! Now that's virtual partying!
Having been around personality disorders for so long, it is possible that you may have picked up one or two of their fleas (traites), but that does not mean you have any full disorder. A bottle or so of wine, a few good waves in the ocean, and rest on the beach would take care of any fleas. :)
Sometimes those traits do wear off on you,,,and you have to be careful to make sure ya shrug them off...like fleas off a dog
Speaking about picking up traits, I have had to unlearn some behaviours learned at home in childhood and replace them. As I grew up I looked around at people who I thought had normal behaviour and learned from them - not sure I have them all yet! ;)
Boo, for the snow, and yea for the beach.
I too have just "walked away" from something I had been doing for my mother and she is furious. It was a result of her actions and disrespect of me and she will have to handle it herself from now on by hiring someone.
I very much needed this post for affirmation as she continues to try to hoover me back;
Thanks all.
I heard a very accurate statement in a pastor's prayer one time, "and we pray for those who do not think they have any needs for they have the greatest needs of all."
nins - so glad you have taken a stand. I have just reviewed the characteristics of NPD and they fit mother very well. She was diagnosed this past year as BPD - I would say she is probably a mix of BPD and NPD. She has some admirable characterictics and has accomplished some things of value in her life, but has shredded people (particularly my father and I - my sister is the "golden girl") all along with her anger, negativity and derogatory comments. She never sees her own responsibility in a relationship - only what others "should" do for her and how they fall short of that. I have made some progress in this in the past few years by stating clearly and often that I have limitations - physical, emotional, financial etc and that I have to be careful not to exceed those. On the occasions that I have exceeded them I let her know and keep repeating it as necessary - that my arm is sore or my allergies have acted up, or my retirement budget will not allow me monthly visits to her (she lives in another city by choice and I am thankful for the distance) and so on. Finally this seerms to have sunk in to a degree. One thing that seemed to help her accept this is me telling her that often it is not that I do not want to help her as much as she wants but that I cannot due to my own limitations. Sometimes these limitations are strictly my needs for a life of my own not dominated by her. She understands health and financial limitations. I haven't tackled emotional ones - not sure she has the ability to understand those. After the last crisis - a few weeks ago, and subsequently very little contact on my part, I am finally "surfacing" and stepping back and revising what I can do and still maintain my own emotional health. For me, as she ages and needs more help, it is a matter of maintaining a balance of my responsibilities to myself and to her and I find that that is not easy to accomplish. I have recently emailed her and told her what I can/will and cannot/will not do as regards her impending move to a new residence. I have suggested options (paid help) for what I cannot/will not do and she seems to have accepted that. I write to her to inform her in a rather impersonal way and that also seems to work.
crowe - yes - those who think they are above the rest of us...
At times I do wonder why God chose this path for me.
(((((((((hugs)))))) to all.
Your mother and my MIL must be identical twins. BPD has a very strong narcissistic streak in it. Your mother, like all BPD moms, has split your sister into all white and you, it sounds, into all black. That's their black/white thinking because to them there is no gray. This is part of their self-protection, and self-projection technique to avoid having to really see themselves as they truly are.
Black and white - yes - and I was the black sheep most of my life and wondered what I had done to deserve it, realizing later that it was her not me. Mother finds people who initially she thinks are the "answer to everything" then this view changes 180 degrees when they do not agree with all she says. Nowadays there is an increasing element of paranoia in there too. In my view, my sister uses my mother and has no compassion for her needs at all. She has no intention of doing anything to help and 15 years ago, to my surprise, my mother decided to move closer to me as she felt my sister would not help her and she (mother) would need help as she aged. I told her at that time I would do what I could. I was never close to my mum - she took vacations with my sister - often paid for by my mother and so on. Being in that close contact would never be a vacation for me!!!! This has continued till about 10 years ago, when, after my sister's husband died, some of her negative feelings towards mother surfaced and all has not been well in paradise since, though my sister continues to visit and take advantage. I stay in a (cheap) hotel when I visit which keeps my sanity and limits the length of my visits. My mother, in the past few months has praised me more than ever in my life and continually says how much she appreciates what I am doing for her. It does not mean she is an easy person for me to deal with, but the appreciation helps. I receive it knowing, that although part of it is undoubtedly sincere, there is likely an aspect of manipulation in it too. We have been able to have some enjoyable meals together, the memories of which I treasure, as within every child is the natural and healthy desire to have a good relationship with his/her parents and any evidence of that is powerful. On the other hand, the evidence of the illness/condition is there too and a powerful deterrent to getting too close.
I suppose the black/white thinking is self protective - they certainly have very little insight into themselves and others are always the reason for their problems. I have found her easier (not easy) to deal with as I accept that is how she is "wired" and that it is likely genetic, I see in the literature that sexual abuse in childhood may be a factor. I am not aware that she experienced that, though she definitely has some weird attitudes toiwards sex.
Emjo,
You seem to be coming to terms really well with your relationship with your mother. I so wish I could find some middle ground with mine-wish WE could find some way to enjoy one another in ANY way at all. We live in the same house (big huge mistake on my part-was hoovered into getting her out of rehab, caring for her for months and then told to "get lost". Admittedly, I was the one living in lala land-didn't have enough recall of what a monster she is because I'd been away a long while.)
The hardest part for me is that I feel I have to be constantly on my guard in order to protect myself and stand up against her manipulations. This is SO against my nature and very stressful.
My FIL did not survive for my MIL could not have married a normal man. Instead she married a very shy man who I think one or both of his parents took advatage of which led to him becoming my MIL's dominated slave. I mean this literally. I've seen henpecked but this man was in bondage. All she didn't have was a real wip and chains! I remember one Father's Day when his wife was enraged that he ordered ice tea to drink without her permission. Plus, when I came along as the SIL, I did get blamed for him acting 'rebellious' (normal) in his latter years which I took as a compliment. However, over time I succomed to walking on eggshells myself but never to the degree that he did.
We once thought that all persons with BPD were sexually abused. However, more and more we are finding this is not always so. There does seem to be a genetic factor in this but it's not determinitive. One proposed new name for BPD is 'emotional de-regulation' which fits well.
My MIL has some weird ideas about sex and much hatred toward men for something her younger brother's did to her on the farm out behind the barn. It sounds like 'playing doctor' got out of hand.
More often than sexual abuse is the combination of a narcissistic mother with a weak passive father and this social/psychological disease gets passed down from one generationt to another as a learned personality disorder until someone breaks the chain by getting some serious therapy, going through DBT, getting on meds, and sticking with the battle until they become more regulated. Strangly enough, the parent dynamic that I just described is very often the case with ssa male and female children of the family, and sometimes people with BPD have some orientation confusion.
People with BPD are famous for playing the victim by creating a tornado and then stepping inside of it as if they are the victim.
Far too often people who grow up in such homes swear they will never marry someone like that, but they are familiar with it and too often accidently end up chosing that sort of person for a mate. The same thing too often takes place with people who divorce a person with BPD for very often unless you look at why you were attracted to them, you very well might marry the same kind of person again.
Like a therapist told my wife, 'the chain can stop with you" At almost 53, I can see why I made many choices that I did in light of my family of origin.
Basically, I married someone much like my mother, almost like I was looking for a 'mother type' who would meet my emotional needs which my mother didn't instead of using me to meet her emotional needs, and yes she is a bit older than I am.
But thankfully unlike my mother, my wife after several years of marriage later got thereapy, took DBT twice and has been on meds ever since. Otherwise, I don't believe we would be married today. While she's not totally healed, and who is, she is stable which has been much better since she set boundaries with her sick 'mommy dearest' and stoped hiding behind my pants to fight her battles in 2005. Now I and the boys feel like she much more fully present with us as a family instead of being so absorbed by her mom. Much of this change began when I started setting boundaries in the fall of 2003.
I'm not totally where I need to be as far as boundaries, but I have made progress.Otherwise, one therapist told me, without continuing to work on boundaries I would become just like my FIL (who died 14 year's ago-peace at last), my weak and very dominated date, and my weak, drunked excuse of a step-dad.
Now, I also understand why my mother never liked my MIL. They were too much alike, just one had a master's degree and the other a high school diploma. An educated person with a personality disorder can really be slick.
My therapist and I have been working on all these and their related issues for 5 years which is very exhausting. He said that I've done so much work in that area that I need to lighten up and enjoy life more. Speaking of lightening up, my wife and I have started on the South Beach dite which I really need since I'm morbidly obese and earlier I tried this diet by myself, lost a lot, but did not stick with it.
"The chain can stop with you"-those are great words to live by in this situation. My kids (25, 23, 19) and I are completely different with one another. I sincerely hope I gave them better, if not perfect underpinnings for their lives.
I do wish I had the means to get therapy as you have. I have support, but laypersons do not quite seem to fathom what it is like to live with these NPD people. They see what is on the surface and as you say the educated NPD is a very difficult. My mother is German, has a classical education, and part of a law degree. She is extremely smart and clever. Ever since I can remember she has considered herself "above" intellectually as well as considering an American education/degree (which I have) to be inferior. If people cannot quote Goethe, Ovid, etc., they can be "dismissed" as uneducated and shallow. In fact Americans themselves are shallow compared to Europeans in her eyes-mere children. She considers me to be one of those she can dismiss, as well as healthcare practitioners, social workers etc. SHE knows it all, and considers those whom she's not currently trying to manipulate into doing something for her idiots, but she doesn't generally show her distain, unless it is when she occasionally "goes off" on someone. Though she is known in the neighborhood for these episodes she manages to never indulge in them in front of anyone of power or authority.. What people don't understand is that she's been "going off" on me that way all my life in private. Very few people have witnessed this. Like you say, its a cyclone-she goes off, which usually consists of the most incredible accusations and suspicions of my motives, then its my charachter, then my lack of intelligence, and finally my physical appearance. If I rebut her in any way or become upset then I am "oversensitive and stupid"and she retreats and refuses to speak any further. She will turn her face away and drum her fingers... I guess thats the part where she steps out of the "eye".
Ok enough ranting for the moment.
I am glad you are taking a bit of time for yourself and getting healthy Crowe. My thanks for all your help.