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My FIL did not survive for my MIL could not have married a normal man. Instead she married a very shy man who I think one or both of his parents took advatage of which led to him becoming my MIL's dominated slave. I mean this literally. I've seen henpecked but this man was in bondage. All she didn't have was a real wip and chains! I remember one Father's Day when his wife was enraged that he ordered ice tea to drink without her permission. Plus, when I came along as the SIL, I did get blamed for him acting 'rebellious' (normal) in his latter years which I took as a compliment. However, over time I succomed to walking on eggshells myself but never to the degree that he did.
We once thought that all persons with BPD were sexually abused. However, more and more we are finding this is not always so. There does seem to be a genetic factor in this but it's not determinitive. One proposed new name for BPD is 'emotional de-regulation' which fits well.
My MIL has some weird ideas about sex and much hatred toward men for something her younger brother's did to her on the farm out behind the barn. It sounds like 'playing doctor' got out of hand.
More often than sexual abuse is the combination of a narcissistic mother with a weak passive father and this social/psychological disease gets passed down from one generationt to another as a learned personality disorder until someone breaks the chain by getting some serious therapy, going through DBT, getting on meds, and sticking with the battle until they become more regulated. Strangly enough, the parent dynamic that I just described is very often the case with ssa male and female children of the family, and sometimes people with BPD have some orientation confusion.
Nins, I feel for you. It is different when we are the caregiver. I did not remember mom being so bad. But my time with her was always limited. So who would guess that being nice to mom would work against me? Wow! That doesn't make sense. But she is the problem, and not me. I am now on the path of peace, because I don't have to do it anymore. Too bad I didn't do this sooner, and thought it was my responsibility to help her. She didn't like it, and it was a nightmare for me. No appreciation at all. Her loss. My gain. God saw and he knows, and ultimately, my reward comes from him. Hot coals were heaped on mom's head, and she didn't even know it. Nothing worse than dealing with a bitter spirit. Glad that today it's not mine. But it's taken a while to work through the pain to forgiveness. Mom may never see that day. She's all about being a victim, and mad at others for it. We all choose our own path. Some don't make the right choices.
joy Emjo, You seem to be coming to terms really well with your relationship with your mother. I so wish I could find some middle ground with mine-wish WE could find some way to enjoy one another in ANY way at all. We live in the same house (big huge mistake on my part-was hoovered into getting her out of rehab, caring for her for months and then told to "get lost". Admittedly, I was the one living in lala land-didn't have enough recall of what a monster she is because I'd been away a long while.) The hardest part for me is that I feel I have to be constantly on my guard in order to protect myself and stand up against her manipulations. This is SO against my nature and very stressful.
Hi crowe - twins - sorry to hear that - it makes for a life of turmoil. How did your husband survive? He is fortunate to have you. I unhappily married someone with similar characteristics as mother, and, thankfully, am finished with that and now have a delightful man in my life who is supportive and has none of these characteristics - a sign of my growth.
Black and white - yes - and I was the black sheep most of my life and wondered what I had done to deserve it, realizing later that it was her not me. Mother finds people who initially she thinks are the "answer to everything" then this view changes 180 degrees when they do not agree with all she says. Nowadays there is an increasing element of paranoia in there too. In my view, my sister uses my mother and has no compassion for her needs at all. She has no intention of doing anything to help and 15 years ago, to my surprise, my mother decided to move closer to me as she felt my sister would not help her and she (mother) would need help as she aged. I told her at that time I would do what I could. I was never close to my mum - she took vacations with my sister - often paid for by my mother and so on. Being in that close contact would never be a vacation for me!!!! This has continued till about 10 years ago, when, after my sister's husband died, some of her negative feelings towards mother surfaced and all has not been well in paradise since, though my sister continues to visit and take advantage. I stay in a (cheap) hotel when I visit which keeps my sanity and limits the length of my visits. My mother, in the past few months has praised me more than ever in my life and continually says how much she appreciates what I am doing for her. It does not mean she is an easy person for me to deal with, but the appreciation helps. I receive it knowing, that although part of it is undoubtedly sincere, there is likely an aspect of manipulation in it too. We have been able to have some enjoyable meals together, the memories of which I treasure, as within every child is the natural and healthy desire to have a good relationship with his/her parents and any evidence of that is powerful. On the other hand, the evidence of the illness/condition is there too and a powerful deterrent to getting too close.
I suppose the black/white thinking is self protective - they certainly have very little insight into themselves and others are always the reason for their problems. I have found her easier (not easy) to deal with as I accept that is how she is "wired" and that it is likely genetic, I see in the literature that sexual abuse in childhood may be a factor. I am not aware that she experienced that, though she definitely has some weird attitudes toiwards sex.
The thing is, the rest of us can see it, and it's not a pretty picture. Lord, keep me from becoming like that! I want to be a blessing to others, but not a door mat to those who will abuse. I thank God for deliverance, and common sense, and compassion, also for a strong back bone, and good walking shoes. Love those boundaries, and distance!
Your mother and my MIL must be identical twins. BPD has a very strong narcissistic streak in it. Your mother, like all BPD moms, has split your sister into all white and you, it sounds, into all black. That's their black/white thinking because to them there is no gray. This is part of their self-protection, and self-projection technique to avoid having to really see themselves as they truly are.
Thanks Sis. I do care about mother and for myself too. I have found that when I start doing things for people because I am feeling sorry for them it spells trouble and I have to check myself for that and change my course of action to avoid being "hoovered" in.
nins - so glad you have taken a stand. I have just reviewed the characteristics of NPD and they fit mother very well. She was diagnosed this past year as BPD - I would say she is probably a mix of BPD and NPD. She has some admirable characterictics and has accomplished some things of value in her life, but has shredded people (particularly my father and I - my sister is the "golden girl") all along with her anger, negativity and derogatory comments. She never sees her own responsibility in a relationship - only what others "should" do for her and how they fall short of that. I have made some progress in this in the past few years by stating clearly and often that I have limitations - physical, emotional, financial etc and that I have to be careful not to exceed those. On the occasions that I have exceeded them I let her know and keep repeating it as necessary - that my arm is sore or my allergies have acted up, or my retirement budget will not allow me monthly visits to her (she lives in another city by choice and I am thankful for the distance) and so on. Finally this seerms to have sunk in to a degree. One thing that seemed to help her accept this is me telling her that often it is not that I do not want to help her as much as she wants but that I cannot due to my own limitations. Sometimes these limitations are strictly my needs for a life of my own not dominated by her. She understands health and financial limitations. I haven't tackled emotional ones - not sure she has the ability to understand those. After the last crisis - a few weeks ago, and subsequently very little contact on my part, I am finally "surfacing" and stepping back and revising what I can do and still maintain my own emotional health. For me, as she ages and needs more help, it is a matter of maintaining a balance of my responsibilities to myself and to her and I find that that is not easy to accomplish. I have recently emailed her and told her what I can/will and cannot/will not do as regards her impending move to a new residence. I have suggested options (paid help) for what I cannot/will not do and she seems to have accepted that. I write to her to inform her in a rather impersonal way and that also seems to work.
crowe - yes - those who think they are above the rest of us...
At times I do wonder why God chose this path for me.
Nins, you need to back away, and nurture your own spirit. We support you in that. God bless you for all you've done. Trust your instincts on your observations. If those symptoms fit your mom, than thank God for opening your eyes. Now, ask him to guide you in caring for you and your mom. Time to make some positive changes for YOU!
I heard a very accurate statement in a pastor's prayer one time, "and we pray for those who do not think they have any needs for they have the greatest needs of all."
This is a great help and support-thanks to all of you. I especially appreciate the reminder to step back and assess whether its really an emergency. Don't know about BPD's, but NPDs (my mother is undiagnosed, but ALL the criteria fits to a T) are wily-everything is an "emergency" because everything is about THEM. Its so easy to be sucked back into their drama. I too have just "walked away" from something I had been doing for my mother and she is furious. It was a result of her actions and disrespect of me and she will have to handle it herself from now on by hiring someone. I very much needed this post for affirmation as she continues to try to hoover me back; Thanks all.
All of life is a process, and none of us is perfect. But, that you care, and want to do right, says a lot. It's the ones who don't think they have any problems that scare me (especially if they're glaring).
Any kind of break would work for me - we just had snow again -inches of it. Ocean waves, a beach, music... don't drink much but a diet soda goes down well. A massage sounds great!
Speaking about picking up traits, I have had to unlearn some behaviours learned at home in childhood and replace them. As I grew up I looked around at people who I thought had normal behaviour and learned from them - not sure I have them all yet! ;)
Oh a regular massage for me is just fine or even one of them pedicure massage chairs...lol...and throw in a pedi...and a manicure and a mimosa (champ/orange j)
Sometimes those traits do wear off on you,,,and you have to be careful to make sure ya shrug them off...like fleas off a dog
I can't drink alcohol right now, but if I could, I would. add one more thing for such a get away. If Catalina did not have some licensed people in Ashiatsu Oriental Bar Therapy, I would fly one or two in. This deep tissue massage technique relaxes without causing the pain that traditional deep tissue massages do. When I had more freedom that I do now and served on a state board of directors for an organization, I'd get one of these 90 minute massages after being in a meeting from 9 am -4pm, after which I'd check in the hotel and sleep or just continue enjoying relaxing until I fell asleep till it was very close to check out time!
Having been around personality disorders for so long, it is possible that you may have picked up one or two of their fleas (traites), but that does not mean you have any full disorder. A bottle or so of wine, a few good waves in the ocean, and rest on the beach would take care of any fleas. :)
Well, was that a Freudian slip or what? I wrote: "I have personality disorders." What I meant to say was, I HATE personality disorders. I don't think I do, but perhaps there's one hiding somewhere...and if so, please don't tell me. LOL Just send me to the beach!!!
Yeah, PirateGal, I don't know how you do it! Award and medal of honor for you!!! Wow. I hear you. We have to deal with things repeatedly with FIL, and it does get old. But then we get to walk out of the nursing home. This is all so wearying. Heaven's sounding sweeter all the time.
I certainly can't imagine dealing with drama from a 98 year old. That would really be maddening.
Hero award for many of you! Here's your invitation: a group hug for our ongoing saga! Let the party continue. Or...shall we all book a cruise?
emjo - dang 98! and still spitting pizz and vinegar wow! Sec Sis wow your mom is still going strong as well. My mom has finally settled down with all of that, she still comes up with some scenarios like on Sunday she was starting up about the neigbors trashcans...I said what...you have more things to worry about besides some trashcans and that was the end of it. She still is going on and on about this constipation crapola...even though she does poop and I find dirty undies. She insists she should go everyday and alot...I said mom you don't eat hardly anything anymore so not much is coming. So she keeps going on and on about going to the hospital so the doctors can FIX her...but I have no say no and say mom.,.constipation is not life threatening and there is nothing more they can do that you are not doing at home..Metamucil and Miralax. So April something or another we are going to a Gastric doc..so we will see what happens then,but it gets tough to keep hearing the droning on and on about this.
I have to deal with my mom's personality disorders on an ongoing basis, since I am my dad's guardian and conservator. She is an Incapacitated individual herself, and thinks she can run his program (Advanced Stage Alzheimer's) too. She has people pulling her string, and leading her by the hand. She tries to get them to pull strings for her, and has found accomplices. It's not a pretty picture, especially for me. And I can't stop it. I do avoid her as much as I can. She acts like an idiot everytime she's around me, though, sending her dogs nipping after my heels. (As if mom isn't bad enough to deal with.) I actually look forward to the day she can no longer do that. Until then, our lives are a nightmare where the paths cross. Ugh! The place she's not invited is my only place of peace. Dad will be mother's last stand. Whatever evil she can do towards me, she will. This is awful stuff. She is vindictive, and downright wicked and evil, and we can't stand being around her. It's getting worse daily. Today she has a friend taking her to a doctor downstate to reinstate her driver's license. If they only knew...but no! They only see a patient for 15 minutes at a time. I dislike crusaders who don't have a clue. Mom is so crafty, she can play anyone who can't see it, and those who just don't care. I have personality disorders. Don't like my mother, either. Her's is the particularly terrible variety. My only refuge is far far far away from her. The greater the distance the better.
Thank you - we do have to say "No" and not cater just because they ask, though that is not necessarily easy. Sometimes I find it a thin line to walk between meeting genuine needs and catering. Maybe I should be praying more for wisdom in determining this. I am so glad that you have help from the facility staff. Mother, unfortunately, was verbally /emotionally abused by a staff nurse where she is now and that has totally "set her off" on a stop elder abuse campaign. I am dealing with the facility foundation's Executive Director over it and some compensation as she is moving to a new place and there have been extra costs with doctor's visits, me staying in a hotel for a week dealing with it etc. She is talking a law suit. Of course, she does not recognize that she herself is abusive, though that does not excuse the nurse. Apologies and efforts to put it right are being given, but have not helped her. I will move her to a new place, which has some other advantages -and, of course, disadvantages - as everywhere in life. But, as I said, I cannot and will not keep moving her, though I know she will not be happy there or anywhere - this is twice within a 6 month period, The new place is larger and she has to buy more furniture etc as I gave much away when I emptied her old place - it is all such a waste. I don't know where she gets the energy to do this at age nearly 98. The anger seems to fuel her as it has all her life. She is too healthy to qualify for a nursing home as yet. Hugs and prayers for all dealing with these issues.
Emjo, I have found that at a certain point I have to say "no" to my Dad, and not keep giving him what he wants just because he is asking for it. Yes, I love him dearly, but I have finally recognized that he is losing "his good mind" and not everything he wants should be accommodated. In other words, I shouldn't cater to him. I have enlisted help from other staff members at his facility to back me up and support what it is he can or can't have. That has been a huge help. God bless these people who work in the geriatric field----they are gifted with a special sensitivity , talent and patience.
Crowe - thanks for the list - I have ordered Stop Waling on Eggshells and the workbook that goes with it and also passed the information along to a couple of friends with BPD mothers. I will forward this list as well. My youngest son was killed 7 1/2 years ago and the pain was terrible but it is something that is healing - slowly, though will never heal completely, but I have peace over it. The injuries from my BPD parent keep happening - before recovering from one episode another happens and triggers the past and so on. A complete break allows for some healing, Once I cut off all contact for a year, while I was figuring out that continual forgiveness was necessary but not enough ( I am sure some days I forgave 70 X 7). Separation for self protection was also necessary for my healing. Annie - thank you - I did not think of Jesus taking time apart from the demands of the world but He did. We need to do the same. Pirategal, my heart goes out to you having to care for your mother in your own home (if I understand it right) - quote - "I had thoughts and feelings, well neither one of them was good at recognizing me as a growing adult and never ever respected me and always treated me a like a child...well those tables are turning....." I am so glad the tables are turning for you - and also that at 81 your mum is not as bad. any more. The negativity is awful! I keep telling my mom about my limitations, my needs, my health issues and that I can only do so much. When it gets to be too much, I tell her and pull back and/or cut off contact for a while. Finally she seems to accept that I do have limitations and that I do have to look after myself. However I have to keep repeating it. I haven't received any enails recently and somewhat dread having to start communicating again as I have to start arranging the move to her new place. I am making a strong case that I will not move her again -that she will have to deal with whatever happens and that I don't want to hear a bunch of complaints. It all takes so much energy!
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People with BPD are famous for playing the victim by creating a tornado and then stepping inside of it as if they are the victim.
My FIL did not survive for my MIL could not have married a normal man. Instead she married a very shy man who I think one or both of his parents took advatage of which led to him becoming my MIL's dominated slave. I mean this literally. I've seen henpecked but this man was in bondage. All she didn't have was a real wip and chains! I remember one Father's Day when his wife was enraged that he ordered ice tea to drink without her permission. Plus, when I came along as the SIL, I did get blamed for him acting 'rebellious' (normal) in his latter years which I took as a compliment. However, over time I succomed to walking on eggshells myself but never to the degree that he did.
We once thought that all persons with BPD were sexually abused. However, more and more we are finding this is not always so. There does seem to be a genetic factor in this but it's not determinitive. One proposed new name for BPD is 'emotional de-regulation' which fits well.
My MIL has some weird ideas about sex and much hatred toward men for something her younger brother's did to her on the farm out behind the barn. It sounds like 'playing doctor' got out of hand.
More often than sexual abuse is the combination of a narcissistic mother with a weak passive father and this social/psychological disease gets passed down from one generationt to another as a learned personality disorder until someone breaks the chain by getting some serious therapy, going through DBT, getting on meds, and sticking with the battle until they become more regulated. Strangly enough, the parent dynamic that I just described is very often the case with ssa male and female children of the family, and sometimes people with BPD have some orientation confusion.
Emjo,
You seem to be coming to terms really well with your relationship with your mother. I so wish I could find some middle ground with mine-wish WE could find some way to enjoy one another in ANY way at all. We live in the same house (big huge mistake on my part-was hoovered into getting her out of rehab, caring for her for months and then told to "get lost". Admittedly, I was the one living in lala land-didn't have enough recall of what a monster she is because I'd been away a long while.)
The hardest part for me is that I feel I have to be constantly on my guard in order to protect myself and stand up against her manipulations. This is SO against my nature and very stressful.
Black and white - yes - and I was the black sheep most of my life and wondered what I had done to deserve it, realizing later that it was her not me. Mother finds people who initially she thinks are the "answer to everything" then this view changes 180 degrees when they do not agree with all she says. Nowadays there is an increasing element of paranoia in there too. In my view, my sister uses my mother and has no compassion for her needs at all. She has no intention of doing anything to help and 15 years ago, to my surprise, my mother decided to move closer to me as she felt my sister would not help her and she (mother) would need help as she aged. I told her at that time I would do what I could. I was never close to my mum - she took vacations with my sister - often paid for by my mother and so on. Being in that close contact would never be a vacation for me!!!! This has continued till about 10 years ago, when, after my sister's husband died, some of her negative feelings towards mother surfaced and all has not been well in paradise since, though my sister continues to visit and take advantage. I stay in a (cheap) hotel when I visit which keeps my sanity and limits the length of my visits. My mother, in the past few months has praised me more than ever in my life and continually says how much she appreciates what I am doing for her. It does not mean she is an easy person for me to deal with, but the appreciation helps. I receive it knowing, that although part of it is undoubtedly sincere, there is likely an aspect of manipulation in it too. We have been able to have some enjoyable meals together, the memories of which I treasure, as within every child is the natural and healthy desire to have a good relationship with his/her parents and any evidence of that is powerful. On the other hand, the evidence of the illness/condition is there too and a powerful deterrent to getting too close.
I suppose the black/white thinking is self protective - they certainly have very little insight into themselves and others are always the reason for their problems. I have found her easier (not easy) to deal with as I accept that is how she is "wired" and that it is likely genetic, I see in the literature that sexual abuse in childhood may be a factor. I am not aware that she experienced that, though she definitely has some weird attitudes toiwards sex.
Your mother and my MIL must be identical twins. BPD has a very strong narcissistic streak in it. Your mother, like all BPD moms, has split your sister into all white and you, it sounds, into all black. That's their black/white thinking because to them there is no gray. This is part of their self-protection, and self-projection technique to avoid having to really see themselves as they truly are.
nins - so glad you have taken a stand. I have just reviewed the characteristics of NPD and they fit mother very well. She was diagnosed this past year as BPD - I would say she is probably a mix of BPD and NPD. She has some admirable characterictics and has accomplished some things of value in her life, but has shredded people (particularly my father and I - my sister is the "golden girl") all along with her anger, negativity and derogatory comments. She never sees her own responsibility in a relationship - only what others "should" do for her and how they fall short of that. I have made some progress in this in the past few years by stating clearly and often that I have limitations - physical, emotional, financial etc and that I have to be careful not to exceed those. On the occasions that I have exceeded them I let her know and keep repeating it as necessary - that my arm is sore or my allergies have acted up, or my retirement budget will not allow me monthly visits to her (she lives in another city by choice and I am thankful for the distance) and so on. Finally this seerms to have sunk in to a degree. One thing that seemed to help her accept this is me telling her that often it is not that I do not want to help her as much as she wants but that I cannot due to my own limitations. Sometimes these limitations are strictly my needs for a life of my own not dominated by her. She understands health and financial limitations. I haven't tackled emotional ones - not sure she has the ability to understand those. After the last crisis - a few weeks ago, and subsequently very little contact on my part, I am finally "surfacing" and stepping back and revising what I can do and still maintain my own emotional health. For me, as she ages and needs more help, it is a matter of maintaining a balance of my responsibilities to myself and to her and I find that that is not easy to accomplish. I have recently emailed her and told her what I can/will and cannot/will not do as regards her impending move to a new residence. I have suggested options (paid help) for what I cannot/will not do and she seems to have accepted that. I write to her to inform her in a rather impersonal way and that also seems to work.
crowe - yes - those who think they are above the rest of us...
At times I do wonder why God chose this path for me.
(((((((((hugs)))))) to all.
I heard a very accurate statement in a pastor's prayer one time, "and we pray for those who do not think they have any needs for they have the greatest needs of all."
I too have just "walked away" from something I had been doing for my mother and she is furious. It was a result of her actions and disrespect of me and she will have to handle it herself from now on by hiring someone.
I very much needed this post for affirmation as she continues to try to hoover me back;
Thanks all.
Boo, for the snow, and yea for the beach.
Speaking about picking up traits, I have had to unlearn some behaviours learned at home in childhood and replace them. As I grew up I looked around at people who I thought had normal behaviour and learned from them - not sure I have them all yet! ;)
Sometimes those traits do wear off on you,,,and you have to be careful to make sure ya shrug them off...like fleas off a dog
Having been around personality disorders for so long, it is possible that you may have picked up one or two of their fleas (traites), but that does not mean you have any full disorder. A bottle or so of wine, a few good waves in the ocean, and rest on the beach would take care of any fleas. :)
Here's an idea. We can all go to Second Life, make our own avtar and party together in second life! Now that's virtual partying!
I certainly can't imagine dealing with drama from a 98 year old. That would really be maddening.
Hero award for many of you! Here's your invitation: a group hug for our ongoing saga! Let the party continue. Or...shall we all book a cruise?
I keep telling my mom about my limitations, my needs, my health issues and that I can only do so much. When it gets to be too much, I tell her and pull back and/or cut off contact for a while. Finally she seems to accept that I do have limitations and that I do have to look after myself. However I have to keep repeating it. I haven't received any enails recently and somewhat dread having to start communicating again as I have to start arranging the move to her new place. I am making a strong case that I will not move her again -that she will have to deal with whatever happens and that I don't want to hear a bunch of complaints. It all takes so much energy!
Which ones have you seen?