I'm sort of borrowing this topic from a recent post from MSA1163, where the bipolar sister lives with mom. Thank you for sharing your story.
I hadn't seen this particular dilemma discussed on this forum and wanted to explore this family dynamic further.
My family is in a similar situation. My sibling moved out of our parents' home as an adult, had a breakdown, moved back home. Moved out, had a breakdown, moved back home, etc.. For decades.
(I suppose 'breakdown' could be substituted with any number of health concerns--basically someone who cannot take care of himself.)
Finally when our parents grew too old to help him, they came up with the plan that my brother could be 'useful' to them in their home. So he moved back home one last time, and was trusted to 'help' with our parents. In trying to defend their long troubled son, they assured everyone that he was taking care of them. He wasn't. I discovered that he was taking advantage of them, treating them terribly, being verbally abusive, etc.
Now he's 66. My mom is 92, on hospice, has dementia and late stage CKD. My dad who was 92 w dementia passed recently. My mom used to cry about my brother, worrying what would happen to him when she passes. Now her dementia keeps her blissfully unaware. She is mostly bedbound and receives full time care.
I have another brother who is his POA. He has agreed to care for this other brother after our mom passes. But...we are not sure what that looks like yet. He can't live alone. That brother's wife does not want the mentally unstable brother to move in with them. The POA brother thinks he will be disruptive should he move into an apartment alone, possibly being kicked out, arrested, living on the streets...any and all of these are possibilities. Oh and this brother refuses any kind of treatment and doesn't take his meds.
So, we are still figuring things out. Our mom declines each week.
If anyone can share their experiences, what worked, what didn't, general thoughts on the subject, I would appreciate it very much.
The POA brother actually asked the unstable brother the other day "what are you going to do when mom passes?" The POA is not forceful enough, not for me anyway. The POA should have said, "This is what is going to happen after mom passes." The unstable brother would have whined and fussed. But if it were me, I would just stick a for sale sign in the yard.
Brandee, you make an excellent point: In the US it is legal to have unmedicated mental illness. That is exactly what is going on here.
I do wonder if there is autism going on as well. He seems unaware of the magnitude of the situation. He lives in his own world, thinking about his own life.
And I do feel my role in all of this is protecting my mom and giving her peace. She only seems to recognize the POA brother. When she sees anyone else she just looks at them. But last week, to the POA brother, she perked up and asked, "Where's dad?" meaning our dad who passed at the beginning of September. So seeing the POA brother triggered memories of my dad.
The POA had a repair man to look at the roof of our parents' house, plus the overall exterior, just yesterday. So that is promising. I do feel the POA wants to sell the house.
And I don't know if the unstable brother's dr has determined him "officially mentally ill" to get disability. From what I understand, he was only given meds for depression, and he's probably not taking them. Depression is not even 1% of the problem.
But I know he thinks no matter where our brother ends up, group home, apartment, under a bridge, he will cause trouble.
Mom is still bedbound and coughing more. But still has a hearty appetite, which confuses me, because her mind and body continue to decline. She is 92 w dementia and chronic kidney disease, stage 3-4. One leg is swollen but not bothering her. She's only taking Seroquel, anti-depressant, and as needed Haldol. Every 5-6 weeks she has an "episode" where she talks to no one non stop for hours. And occasionally she will talk in her sleep, once a night.
But the good thing is that she has no idea what is going on outside of her bedroom. She no longer worries about the unstable brother. She used to cry her heart out over him. Now she is not concerned. I'm glad for her.
Thanks again.
In your scenario, I'd say live in the day, and don't borrow troubles. Make decisions in the day as things come up.
We had this exact scenario. Schizophrenic uncle (unmedicated) lived in an apartment in grandma's barn on grandma's property.
Schizophenic uncle ended up dying 1 month before grandma (who lived to be 98.)
In the US it is legal to have unmedicated mental illness.
I'd not future trip and let the executor figure out the house sale and evicting the bipolar brother after the death of your mother.
Your brother with the mentally ill brother's POA may step down from this job. It is very common as those with untreated bipolar are so difficult to deal with.
Both my brother and sister have bipolar untreated and they are exceptionally difficult to deal with. I've learned you can't "negotiate" with bipolar and schizophrenic people.
I'd be thankful that you and and the other brother don't have POA for the mentally ill brother. Let brother who is executor and POA for mentally ill brother work through things. Listen to him if he wants to review things with you and offer him support.
Live in the moment.
Best wishes to you as I know it is a very hard and sad situation.
Figuring things out ahead of time is a better way to go. I tried but I was not driving this bus since I was only an in-law. My husband refused to listen. Everyone else was a frog in a pot that was slowly heating up. They did not realize the magnitude of the problem until they were in it.
It should be discussed now.
As someone has mentioned there are group homes for people with mental health problems. If he refuses treatment or help then he suffers the consequence's. Your family/POA bro do not have to shore him up and prevent the consequence to him.
I know that seems harsh. Mental illness is very difficult to deal with and very hard on the family. In some ways it is like addictions. The afflicted person has to take responsibility for their actions. As family you play a part in that by setting appropriate boundaries and not allowing yourselves toi be used or to enable.
Wishing you the best in this difficult situation.
He agrees to your other brother being appointed as his legal conservator/guardian (you DO NOT want this) and he agrees to move into a group home, or a supervised-living apartment situation. The rent will be based on his income. If he is mentally ill he should be on disability.
Or he can get tent and find a bridge to live under.
These are the choices. Don't allow yourselves to be guilt-tripped or pulled into his manipulative games like your parents did. He weasled his way back in with them over and over then behaved abusively to then when they gave him a home and provided for him. Your bedbound mother is still taking care of him.
He refuses to take meds? Throw him out. Get him served with eviction if you have to. People like your brother manipulate and intimidate others to get what they need and want. They think everyone and the whole world owes them when it doesn't. Your mother deserves to have some peace in the last days of her life. When he acts up or gets verbally abusive, call 911 and tell the police he's making threats against you, your mother, and himself. This will let him know that you and your other brother are serious and that his manipulative games will not be tolerated.
I believe I told MSA1163 something similar that I will tell you now. Even adults with mental illness have to take some responsibility for themselves and be pro-active in their own lives. Your brother is a 66 year old adult who I am going to assume is not special intellectual needs (I'm not sure what the new and proper term for 'retarded' is these days). He can take some responsibility for himself, his bi-polar disorder, and his own life.
Your brother and yourself need to sit him down and tell him what I just posted for you. If he refuses, let he chips fall where they may because he cannot be moved into either of your homes.
What you need to realize is that your brother has a mental illness that he is unwilling to treat. You can't spend your life dealing with him if he won't do for himself. You may have to walk away at sometime for your own sanity and wellbeing.
I had not heard of anyone else in this particular situation. We knew the day would come, we knew the POA brother would be the one to care for the unstable brother after our parents pass, because he is the only one who has the patience for him, and he ignores his law breaking behavior. But there is no set plan in place for his future living arrangement. We will look in to all the suggestions.
Our dad passed a month ago and our mom is basically bedbound, so it could be before the end of the year that both of our parents will have passed.
His Social Security is not enough to live on. I did discover he has some savings, yet he never contributes anything while living with our parents. I think my parents have had years of built up guilt over the path his life has taken. It took my dad's dementia to finally express his anger over this son, but it was shortlived. And when the cops came to their door in August, to tell my brother that he would be put in jail if he ever returns to the grocery store he was just kicked out of, my dad was sitting at the kitchen table, my mom was napping in the bedroom, and both were oblivious. It was just another day.
The POA goes back and forth with his concerns, saying this unstable brother needs to have a life, like going to the grocery or getting out of the house, but at the same time he has said that if he ends up in jail, then he ends up in jail.
The POA brother has been maintaining our parents' home. It may need some upgrades before being put on the market, but nothing major.
I chuckled when I read that ShirleyDot asked who will check on the house to make sure he hasn't flooded the bathroom. That exact thing happened many years ago. The unstable brother was living at home (again), the POA was in high school. The POA was called out of high school to come home to turn off the water because unstable brother couldn't figure out how to do it. We have all come to his rescue in one way or another. That one was one of the minor incidences. Luckily the POA brother now lives right around the corner from our parents' house. The third brother and I live in different states. The unstable brother is the oldest.
Thanks again for all the suggestions and advice and the book recommendation. I do appreciate all the feedback and insight.
I'm sorry. There are no good answers, but doing nothing means leaving him there until he wrecks the house and dies.
I have a nephew who was born with multiple physical problems and a neuroligical problem. He, for now, is living on his own with the help of the State. They pay 70% of his rent. He has a coordinator and an aide once a week that cleans and helps him run errands. I am still his POA and oversee his money. I am sure though, if I was not POA, that a conservator would be assigned to him. He receives Social Security Disability, Food Stamps, Medicare and Medicaid. I am 76 and got him set up with the State because one day, I am not going to be here. He needs people. The State will eventually take over his care and that is what the POA needs to let happen.
Along with children is the fact that in some cases, where heretofore a diagnosis of dementia would come for a spouse of an troubled elder, now it is often a dx. of "bipolar" for which there is little help and no ability to intervene as guardian of said ill spouse. We currently have this situation with a dear friend.
I tell all to read Liz Scheier's memoir, Never Simple. It shows a woman who worked along with the auspices of the social services of city and state of NY to intervene for her mentally challenged mother for decades and until the mother's death.
TO NO AVAIL.
While it will help no one, this memoir will set in stone in your brain that in dealing with mentally ill members of our society in America there is almost ZERO help, and very few answers.
I wish I had better news. I spent my life as a nurse, and I saw a lot, and the devastation of mental illness changes families drastically, and always for the worse.
I think you siblings should back away from your inheritance and put all the money of the proceeds of your parents' house into a special needs trust for your brother. That money can be used to pay for an apartment for him. Or, alternatively, don't sell the house and allow your brother to live there for now. Sacrifices need to be made to be free of living arrangements that will make all of you miserable. Sometimes money isn't everything.
My in-laws did not provide for their daughter's financial future. The plan was for her two brothers to care for her. Right now she is living with her other brother and his wife is really angry about it. And I refuse for her to live with me, it is just not happening. I do not have the patience to live with her and simply just don't want to be a caregiver to her.
My refusal to help has destroyed what was a close relationship between my husband and his brother and has put a lot of stress on my 48 year marriage. I was a stupid kid of 22 when I married and I failed to see this red flag and in hindsight should never have married this good man. I feel a lot of guilt these days about this.
If poa brother is executor, he can legally draw from the estate to pay legal costs associated with settling the estate. Like throwing brother out.
I would call his county's social services and have this discussion.
This is a distressing situation and I"m sorry everyone in your family has to suffer through it. I wish you clarity, wisdom and peace in your hearts as you make decisions.
You might want to talk to the Hospice Social Worker and see if they have any ideas that m ight help the family in this respect.
I suppose what might help in some respect is that he is a "senior" so he may qualify for some services.
Check with your local Senior Service Center and see if there are programs available.
I am afraid that with your comment that he refuses any kind of treatment and he will not take his meds there is not much you can do.
You can not help someone that does not want help...
I am sorry to say that you steel yourself to the fact that this will probably not end well.
What income, etc. does the incompetent brother have? Disability? Medicare? Medicaid?
No, the brother should definitely not move in and disrupt his sibling's life.
I suggest the POA brother consult with an Elder Law attorney about what services are available for the unstable brother, and how to set up whatever finances come from your mother's estate, on his behalf. And then surrender the POA and leave it all in the hands of Adult Protective Services and whatever other agencies have possible resources that can help your unstable brother. Sometimes there's only so much you can do.
The POA brother is executor of the will and anything financially related. He handles the finances and I handle our parents' healthcare.
Our parents' house is paid for, and our parents' savings are paying for both our mom's full time in-home care plus all groceries and utilities and car insurance and fuel, etc. that comes with our brother living in the house with our mom. He buys whatever he is in the mood for at the grocery. Needless to say he has been kicked out of two grocery stores. In August, cops came to our parents' house to talk to him, but he was undeterred. But that's for another post...
After I brought up the fact that the unstable brother was overspending at the grocery store (and any other store he went to) using our dad's credit card, the POA brother signed him up for his social security to get deposited into our parents' bank.
He is unable to work. Has been fired too many times to count. He is erratic and explosive. He is not on disability. He has medicare. He is living how he wants. It took my having access to the cameras in our parents' home to put a stop to his abusive behavior towards them. (I live 800 miles away but thankfully the caregivers are on board with doing what it takes to protect my mom.)
The concern is that the POA brother will just do nothing after our mom passes, because, well, that is the easiest thing to do. The POA will probably continue to allow our brother to live in our parents' house, because he is afraid of any alternative.
The unstable brother is so unstable that he will likely get kicked out anywhere he goes. The only home (or business) he hasn't been kicked out of yet is our parents' house (!). I also have a third brother (I'm the youngest) who would benefit financially from the sale of our parents' house after our mom passes, so this has the potential of causing a rift between those two brothers... Ah, family.
So on top of having two parents with dementia, I have three brothers with various points of view.
Thanks again.