My mom has been living with my daughter for four years now. She is capable of doing anything within her age group of 84. She is tiny, fiesty and can be mean. She has had several surgeries because of pain.
The family is divided on if she really needs to have a guardian over her now. But those of us whom she does not live with have been told to go along with it or she can come live with us. We are not able to have her come live with us, but we do want what is best for her. She lives rent free, and does get fed. At times, her medication has been too much, as she is in so much pain.
My daughter talks to her as if she is a baby, which I don't appreciate. She did have a SLUME test, which she failed 16/31, but no other assessments have been completed. She has my daughter or son-in-law standing over her at all her appointments because they don't trust what she says. I don't know what to do. The one sentence the neurologist said was he fells she is "moderate Alzheimer's with dementia," but no other assessments have been done. She has a memory, as I tested it this past week and she remembers conversations and how to play games.
I need some advice. Do I go along with her giving up all her rights? She can walk, talk and take care of herself. She did get her license revoked this year. The hearing is next month, and I am not sure what to do.
I am afraid of retaliation and being blocked from my daughter and her family if I push this. I feel like I am caught in the middle. I know my daughter has sacrificed a lot, but she is the one that chose for my mom to live with her. It is a toxic relationship at times, but others are okay. We only see the "showing" part of the situation when we visit, we don't live 24/7 with them.
To me that means that the daughter should be POA and guardian of her.
Clearly she already has dementia, and should have a guardian.
I don't really see how, why or where you have a say in all of this unless you wish to wrest care away from the granddaughter and do it yourself or place her in care.
If you wish to fight this in court, given the daughter is giving her good care, I do believe you would lose, but if you wish to do so, do consider seeing an attorney.
Unless you yourself would like to step in and assume caring for your mother, or have her placed in Memory Care Assisted Living, I suggest you count your blessings your daughter is willing to take this huge burden on. And it's quite a burden.
Fyi, you can NEVER fully trust what a demented elder tells you about anything, especially pertaining to a doctors appointment. It's 100% necessary for a POA or advocate to accompany the elder to all the appointments to get the facts straight. We're you TO live 24/7 With your mother you'd really see what dementia was all about, and what your daughter truly puts up with on a daily basis. Being able to play games and dress herself means nothing much with the loss of executive brain function. She requires 24/7 care and supervision now, as my own mother did with dementia.
This should not be a family decision unless the "family" is equally contributing to moms care. Your daughter is the boots on the ground caregiver so she's the one in charge. Her and the doctor.
Does your daughter and son-in-law have that kind of money to spend on getting guardianship for her grandmother?
Now if you're talking POA instead of guardianship that's a whole other story as your mom would have to designate in front of a lawyer that she wants your daughter as her POA, and that costs only a few hundred dollars.
BUT...and this is a big but, the fact that your mom has dementia may prohibit your mom from being able to designate anyone at this point to be her POA, and guardianship may be the only route legally that can be done.
However the attorney will have a talk with your mom to see if they feel she is mentally sound enough to be able to designate someone as POA, and proceed from there.
Bottom line, someone has to step up I guess at this point to look after your mom in her now deteriorating mental health, and if your daughter is willing....God bless her, as she has a very hard road ahead.
If no one else can take care of your mother, why is everyone else weighing in on how your daughter and SIL provide care, as long as its not abusive? Unfortunately in caregiving, I have found that people that are the least involved with the actual hands on caregiving feel the need to offer their often uninformed opinion because they don't understand the realities so they offer what they *think* should be happening. Generally what this means is they offer the opinion from the perspective of the loved one - and what they say they want.
No one WANTS to have a guardian. No one really WANTS to go into facility care. But often when dementia and ALZ are involved, the principle no longer has a grasp of what they NEED. They can express that they don't WANT things. But they are very much like a young child, who does not understand that they NEED or HAVE to do things, and only look at their lives from a protected bubble of what they WANT. And they will fight or push boundaries if they don't get their way.
My FIL didn't WANT a lot of things. But there came a point that he wasn't competent enough to make good decisions for himself or ensure that he was safe. Thankfully a POA was already legally addressed.
If your daughter is willing to take this on - and you've already expressed that no one else is - I think your best bet - and that of the rest of your family - is to support your daughter in this endeavor.
Unfortunately your mom still has cognitive powers, apart from the odd lapse. So it is ultimately her decision as to who controls her future. You have given enough examples of how she is still coping fairly well with life.
What you think is best for her may not be reality; you are not the one with responsibility for her 24/7. Sorry to be a bit blunt but you may not know half of what your daughter has to do for her. Perhaps you need to step back.
Hey, you know what? I've got a great idea...let's spend lots of time and money seeking court-ordered guardianship over grandma! Doesn't that sound fun?"
If she's contemplating seeking guardianship, I'm sure that someone in the know - a doctor, a lawyer, a therapist, a social worker, etc. - has spoken to her about it and recommended it. And it is usually as a last resort, not the first thing people who are caregiving for the elderly think to do unless and until their backs are completely and utterly against a wall.
If you're that uncomfortable with it, you can always take grandma in. She is either your mother, or your mother-in-law. You daughter and her husband are 1000% correct when they say to all of you "helpful" family members to, in essence, put up or shut up.
As Ann Landers used to put it - MYOB. If you are content to let your daughter do the heavy lifting here, you have no call to criticize how she does it, unless grandma is in serious danger, which doesn't appear to be the case here.
Your daughter has her hands very full .
Further assessments may or may not be necessary for guardianship . Let the court decide .
In the meantime , all you need to know is that your Mom will only decline . If I was you I would go along with what your daughter is trying to do . Sounds like she’s trying to make sure your mother is cared for . You being “ in the middle “ makes it harder for your daughter .
You only see the showtiming on visits .
Don’t engage in your mother’s fantasy that she is independent , because she is not .
You are absolutely right that the grandmom is probably showtiming during visits. Women are more socially verbal and can fake their way thru chit-chat.
If the doctor has told the granddaughter that grandmom has dementia, then grandmom can't legally assign POA to someone. It has to be guardianship thru the court.
I agree with granddaughter that if relatives disagree with granddaughter's plan, the relatives can take grandmom into their home.
Caregiving is a difficult job at best. You are right that Mother should come for an extended visit and care-give. Then she will see what the situation really is, not the showtiming.
It may or may not be and ‘eye-opener’ for you, but it would be a way to build bridges with your daughter as well as to get a better idea of M’s difficulties. You probably know that behavior is nearly always worst with the people who are providing most of the help. A weekend may not be long enough to see the big picture, but it would be better than nothing!
its good to know Mom is feisty and healthy , however a POA giving her children right to guardianship will certainly help in the long run . Waiting until she isn’t feisty anymore is going to be worse and drag everyone through hell .
Actually, just to sway off topic, I had mine done @ 58 after my husband of 59 ended in a nursing home. Because you need it ASAP it’s going to cost $$$$. So things can change in the blink of an eye.
So having a POA, health proxy and will is something to help her when she needs it . She may look at it as control but who does she think is going to run around when she is laid up ..YOU.
No one would be able to access her banking (unless she has a joint account) and then you are stuck .She can have a general POA, a durable or a springing and stipulate in her will her preferences.
Staying silent isn’t wise . You have a right to be concerned and expressing that is better than waiting until your hands are tied . Believe me spend it now to save your soul from the hell I experienced.
It kind of goes along the same lines as "we are all perfect parents before we have children."
Why do you think it is a bad idea? Are you or anyone else in the family POA or do any of them take your mother to the Dr and over see her care? You said your mother pays nothing to stay with your daughter, so it sounds like it is not money related. Does your mother have money or assets you are worried about?
Does your mother have a POA?
Is your mother happy living with your daughter? Where would she go if she was not?
My mother is same age and even though she can remember the past and how to play games she could never properly take care of herself or be trusted with medications.
However I do wonder why does she want guardianship instead of POA? Guardianship has to be court approved as you say. POA is easier and your mother still has a choice unless she is deemed incompetent.
Because I don't understand why your daughter thinks she needs a guardianship. Do you know? Is she sick of hearing everyone weigh in with their opinions and this will just shut them down? Does she really just want to put your mom in AL? Is your daughter a control freak and this is how she rolls?
Guardianship will not make your mom less feisty and difficult. It is also kind of a high bar, at least in my state, and there is not much it does that a healthcare proxy and POA can't do. And it also doesn't mean much unless it is put to practical use.
So I suggest you try to better understand what yout daughter hopes to accomplish with a guardianship and go from there. Just ask questions, caringly. And of course be as supportive as possible, which it sounds like you are trying to be.
Your daughter is dealing with a lot. She did not wake up one morning and capriciously decide that golly I want to pursue guardianship, that could be so much fun. there are good reasons why she wants to.
I don’t know what your story is, but be thankful your daughter is a wonderful human being who stepped up to the plate so you don’t have to and just be in her corner. At least do that.
And you should be proud of her.
I think your daughter seeking guardianship is the next smart move. Someone will need to be in place as a guardian as your mother loses her capacity to make her own decisions, and manage her own care.
Your statement says that "she", your mother (?) does not want to give it to her.
Do you know why? Have you asked your mother about it?
In any case there is a hearing scheduled for this, and I trust the court will work it out judiciously. There is no reason for you to be involved in this matter, unless you are seeking guardianship yourself.
I have to say, I agree with your daughter on this - unless you are prepared to be the one to take care of your mother, stay out of it.
You are not going to agree with everything she does or how she does it, like her talking to her grandmother "like a baby". Unless you suspect she is truly abusing or taking unfair advantage of your mother, let her do it as best she can.
If you really suspect abuse, financial, mental, or physical, you can call APS to investigate, and they will find a guardian for your mother. I would not recommend that course of action in these circumstances.
If you've never taken care of someone with failing health and failing mental capacity, you can't possibly imagine how challenging it is! Many of us in this forum have done exactly that, and given the opportunity, wouldn't do it again.
It is physically and emotionally draining Every Day! And we put up with things that we never, in our wildest dreams, could have anticipated!
If your daughter is doing an OK job of taking care of her grandmother, let her!
And let her decide when a move to a care facility is appropriate.
The 36-Hour Day: A Family Guide to Caring for People Who Have Dementia, Memory Loss - Johns Hopkins Press Health Book. After 35 years, still the indispensable guide for countless families and professionals caring for someone with dementia.
Through five editions, The 36-Hour Day has been an essential resource for caregivers/families who love and care for people with dementia, including Alzheimer. This book will help understand and address a host of challenging problems/issues that will arise. It supports the caregiver to simultaneously cope with their own emotions and needs.
Features information by recent research into the causes and therapies to prevent or cure dementia, including:
• devices to make life simpler and safer for people who have dementia
• strategies for delaying behavioral and neuropsychiatric symptoms
• changes in Medicare and other health care insurance laws (always changing-check)
• palliative care, hospice care, durable power of attorney, and guardianship
• dementia due to traumatic brain injury
• choosing a residential care facility
• support groups for caregivers, friends, and family members
The central idea underlying the book―that much can be done to improve the lives of people with dementia and of those caring for them―remains the same. The 36-Hour Day is the definitive dementia care guide
And, googling Teepa Snow - watching her webinars, You Tubes, buy her books. I studied dementia / webinars for 1-1/2 to 2 years. Gena
Your daughter should be paid at the very least mom's share of living expenses.
I have to wonder what will you do with your mom if your daughter evicted her for you all fighting the guardianship. Do you know?
I have to say that I think your mom should be grateful that your daughter wants to make sure she has the authority to help, since she has all the responsibility, it is only fair.
The rest of you need to decide if having mom on your hands is worth the criticism you so easily dish out. Quite frankly, I agree with your daughter, she gets guardianship or you get to take care of YOUR demented mom.
Even though your daughter made the decision for your mother to move in with her, situations / circumstances change and so do the relatinships of the people involved. I wouldn't 'hold' your daughter to a commitment she made - in terms of holding it against her.
While I do not understand the 'moderate Alz with dementia' because Alz is a form of dementia (the word dementia is the umbrella for all of this types of conditions). In any case, it will progress and the entire 'split' family needs to realize this. It is a matter of making a decision now for more over-seeing or later. Waiting to later could be waiting too long wherein a host of circumstances needing an immediate, if not EMERGENCY decision is very chaotic and difficult.
If I were you, I would flush out in more detail why your daughter feels a Guardianship is necessary at this time. Have her write down specific situations that lead her to make these decisions of what the needed / best course of action (legally) is now.
In my experience, I tend to understand, if not agree, with MD visits and what a person says. Most MDs do not get the full picture interacting with a patient afflicted with dementia or on that road. The patient is cognizant 'enough' to know how to maneuver how to talk to an MD to get what they want ... in other words, the patient can EASILY talk to an MD as if they know what they are doing AS 99.99% PEOPLE DO WANT TO HOLD ON TO THEIR INDEPENDENCE, OR PERCEIVED INDEPENDENCE.
It actually amazes me how many MDs 'buy into what their patient" says without further flushing out/discussion or medical / neurological investigation. My CL (client) was an alcoholic all her life. Now, in a facility for several years after a stroke, she still drinks and gets bottles of xxx whenever someone will buy for her ... BOTTOM LINE: she tells the MD she has a drink or two a week and the MD believed her. I was sitting right there, amazed. So, it is prudent - from my point of view and experience - for family / your daughter to be in on these medical appointments.
That you realize you see part of the picture since you do not live with your mother is huge - and I applaud you for being aware that there are more pieces to this puzzle than you see / experience. And, it is no bowl of cherries or no bed of roses for your daughter, either. This is REALLY hard work and she is in it 24/7 (with or without add'l help).
I question if there is some legal 'middle ground,' where your daughter has more authority now yet doesn't take / acquire full Guardianship. I would flush this out with the family and an attorney.
What you do not want to happen is waiting until an emergency decision needs to be made for your mom's care and no one is in place to take that on.
Gena / Touch Matters
OP can't decide whether to oppose the guardianship. Of course this is going to alienate the daughter. What kind of pushing can OP do if he doesn't have an alternative to offer? Perhaps the better approach is to get on the same team and really try to understand what's going on--from the daughter's viewpoint, not just Mom's. This would be brought into sharp focus by relieving daughter and her husband for a week or so and staying with/caring for Mom himself.
We probably appear to be hovering like your daughter (we do not baby talk to them) and talk to care givers and Dr. because of Mom’s not being truthful.
I checked into guardianship - your mom has the right to say no.
last week I talked to attorneys, care givers and family. Nothing we can do. Basically we were told that until they crash and burn, literally on their own, nobody can do anything.
Mom called and accused myself and my husband of stealing from them. She wanted “all of their money -all their money back” My dad had been in the hospital and we were paying all the bills and taking care of everything (have off and on for years). She said we were holding the prisoner and wanted the truck back. They had to put a ramp on the trailer for dad and that was where the truck was parked. He has been told not to drive, not sure he can even physically get in and out of the truck, I know mom can’t. The tone of voice and past history made me afraid emotionally and physically.
After she called me she called my sister in another state and accused her and her husband of helping me steal their money.
I was devastated (so glad we had had a family teleconference the day before. ). I followed the plan, I returned the checkbook, along with upcoming bills (to the front porch). Then my brother-in-law and sister came and got the truck and parked it at my parents house. They did not feel comfortable going in either.
The next day my mom called to apologize on voice mail, and called twice more wanting us to do things for them. She has turned to other sisters, we’ll see where this goes.
Their community care groups knows all of this and has put together a meeting tomorrow, because my parents are refusing their services also.
Guardianship is not inexpensive (although generally costs are borne by the Ward)
Guardianship is time consuming.
Guardianship requires detailed record keeping.
Guardianship also requires occasional appearances in Court. And annual reports to the Court.
Curious if there is a specific reason your daughter wants Guardianship of your mother. Or is it because she is not POA and has to make legal, financial, medical decisions for your mom and mom can no longer make those decisions herself?
Not liking how your daughter speaks to your mum as if she's a child isn't really an issue. There are far more important considerations, such as keeping your mum safe and well. It seems your daughter is doing that.
Personally, I feel it's really sad that your daughter is losing some of her youth in looking after her grandmother. But, as you point out, that's her choice. Be thankful towards her: she's making your life much easier.
I think your daughter's attitude is right: if you aren't happy with how she's taking care of your mum, you can take over her care. I think that you are worried about your mum losing her autonomy, when the real problem is she's losing her faculties.
Learn more about dementia so you can understand the situation better and to ease your mind that it's in your mum's best interests for someone else to take control of her wellbeing.