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I am the caregiver for my 85 year old mum with dementia and 89 year old father with a weak heart.


Given their age, I think they are in pretty good shape. My mum has no short term memory and some delusions (she thinks my father has other women around). My dad uses a cane and gets tired very easily. They don't need help dressing, washing or eating and get around pretty well.


From conversations when they were healthy and younger, and also now in their lucid moments, they have both made it clear to me that they do not want any special medical procedures to extend their lives which I understand and agree with. Their primary care doctor also signed their advanced directives stating so.


I bring them to all their medical appointments and give them their meds. But there seems to always be more appointments "just to be cautious". Like my mum had a scan and it showed kidney and lung nodules. We followed up with CT/MRI scans and specialist appointments, but both doctors said it's probably nothing and do scans for a couple of more years to follow up. My mum is having more and more trouble following instructions which can make appts challenging unless the staff is v patient. My dad has extremely bad macular degeneration and the last retina specialist said there is nothing he can do, but still wants to see him every 6 months.


They really don't like going to so many medical appointments. Do I just not bring them? I feel like I'm neglecting them. My father told the primary care Dr that he doesn't want to go to any of the referral appointments and the Dr said he respected that and made note of it.


I understand not wanting extreme measures taken in the event of heart failure or something, but is not bringing them to medical appointments the same thing? Am I being neglectful in not pushing them to follow through? To be honest, I'd rather my mum pass away of something before her dementia gets severe.


I'm so confused and have feelings of sadness, anger, frustration all mixed together.


Thanks for listening.

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I havent read all the responses but have to suggest
you ask the BIG ... WHY.. whne you next go to an appointment
It seems specialists are scared of legal implications if they say, dont bother coming..
your parents sound like mine were a good decade ago, luckily we dont live in the land of health means money.
so if one has macular degeneration and there is nothing to do then really all that should be needed is the right to attend if any problems arise. I just see your post is one that your parents are being bled to death $$$ and energy wise for no reason and they dont want it anyway.
You are not being negligent you are being practical.
Good luck and hope the non necessary stresses get reduced
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I think you should take them to their appointments, let each doc know how they feel, and follow the doctor's advice.

I stayed out of my mom's care and now we both deeply regret it - she was just diagnosed with breast cancer and even at 84 wants to fight it within reason. If I had been more pro-active, she would have been getting mammograms every year, along with other maintenance care.

She didn't want to "fuss" and her primary let her get away with it. Now she wishes a little more fussing was done during those years.
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My mother recently turned 82. She has had severe high blood pressure for at least 40 years (top number runs over 200). She has went to doctors off and on over the years and ended up stop taking her meds and stop seeing the different doctors. Recently she went to an eye doctor to replace lenses in her glasses. They found cataracts and glaucoma. They told her she would need to see her regular doctor to get a release for cataract surgery. She found a doctor and I started taking her to her appointments for her high blood pressure. One of the meds that were prescribed put her in the hospital for four days because it washed the sodium out of her system. While she was in there she saw numerous doctors and a renal specialist. She has had a battery of tests either before, during and after her admission and they can not find anything wrong. During a five week span (including her hospitalization) she has had 16 medication changes, numerous runs to the lab for blood draws and a least 2-3 appointments a week with various doctors. The nepherologist put her back on a diuretic that can wash out her sodium. I noticed her symptoms right away and after a blood test (it was low again)she stopped taking the prescription. Then he prescribed one that they usually start in a hospital because it can cause massive heart problems. She now is refusing to see the nepherologist. I have a strong feeling that she will no longer treat her high blood pressure (which so far is better on the three drugs she is willing to take, but not normal) as soon as she gets the o.k. to have her cataract surgery. On top of all this she has been showing signs of dementia even prior to all of these appointments and it seems that all the med changes and coming and going is increasing the symptoms.
Even though we are all taught that doctors knows best, they are all very fail-able. Bottom line is I can't force her to go nor can I force her to take any and all meds prescribed so when that day comes (and it will) I will not make her go to the appointments that she doesn't want to attend.
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AlvaDeer Jun 2019
You are so correct. As a nurse I saw so many patients suffering from the side effects of over medication.
They would have high pressure due to anxiety in office, be given medications, fall over after getting up at night to pee. Be given surgeries not needed even, and certainly tests. They are the cash cows of the system and get passed from doctor to doctor.
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Thanks so very much everyone for your kind and generous responses. I was so lost until I stumbled upon this forum (just last week!). I was feeling very alone and now I don't feel that way any longer.
There is a treasure trove of experience on this forum and everyone is so kind to take the time to share. It strengthens me. {{{hugs}}}
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Given their ages and conditions, I would personally speak to the doctors and say an appointment is fine but it cannot be so frequently. Confirm just what you are dealing with and projected time before passing. Based with that information, you determine what is reasonable and YOU make the appointments and handle the schedules - the rest is up to God. Perhaps annually might be a good start. If there is nothing that can be done, it is insane to go to so many appointments.
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DH and I are deciding for ourselves when to take up repeat appointments. DH cancelled one recently which was a second follow-up with a specialist who removed a bit of metal from his eyeball and charged like there was no tomorrow. DH decided that he didn’t need to pay another $250 to be told after 5 minutes that it had healed up nicely – he could tell that himself. I cancelled an appointment for an in-depth breast examination, which a locum insisted on making after reading the mammogram report. It said that I had felt a bruise but they could see nothing on the X-ray. I had already worked out that I bruised it myself when I went to sleep on a bra underwire, and there was no need to check based on what I’d said I felt.

So we normally err on the side of caution, but we use our common sense about when to follow doctors’ advice. I’d suggest you do the same for your parents. Some follow ups are clearly unnecessary, some are just a way to make more money from something that is well and truly over, and some are to check for something that isn’t sensible to follow up anyway. Don’t feel guilty for using reasonable judgement yourself.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. I'm so often confounded by the many "follow up" appts which end up being 5 minutes and "see you next time".
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If I tell you "No, don't take them to their doctor appointments" and then they have medical emergencies, it's on me. So I refrain as I am no medical professional. However, I am an over 72 year old elder and I never miss a doctor appointment, EXCEPTION to the rule - I missed an ear doctor appointment and when I finally saw my ear doctor quite as soon as I could, I had an infection brewing!!
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Keeping in mind that the medical industry is a business! You can choose whether you want to participate in all that business offers or decline. I would certainly say with the conditions you mentioned, I would be talking to her PCP and closing out all other doctor visits, except if you needed something for pain relief. I’ve taken care of a mother-in-law and an aunt and the only appointments that we attended in their latter years was with their primary care doctor or as needed for pain relief. This is where Hospice is a godsend, so that you can stop leaving your house just to help them be comfortable, offering any pain meds available as needed. It seems to me that once you approach 65 the medical industry views you as the goose that laid the golden egg, the more complications you present the more money you get them. You can play that game if you want to, we did not. Mother-in-law lived 10 years with Alzheimer’s very comfortably, seven in our home, she only saw the doctor three times while in our home then I brought in hospice for the last three years. Aunt lived in our home just short of four years with Parkinson’s that she had had for over 15 years, vascular dementia that she had had at least for three, congestive heart failure. When she first moved in she had to see five doctors I quickly put an end to that and we continued only with her neurologist to help manager her Parkinson’s symptoms, who we would only see once every six months instead of every three as he wanted. Just because Medicare will pay them and they have an amount of visits theyll cover doesn’t mean you have to go that amount of visits.
take charge of your life and what health is left and just say, NO!
I refused as a caregiver to sit in a waiting room and see a doctor to have their weight blood pressure and BP checked have a doctor look at them for five minutes and announce, everything‘s fine come back next month. I know they were getting a check from Medicare for that service but I did not have to be part of the game!

Now I manage care for a client (87) dementia, whose children want to take care of and fix every problem. She visits every specialist on the planet and is at the doctor constantly. I’m paid by the hour if that’s what they want. when they ask me I tell them, “frankly your mom is 87 we cannot fix the problems that she has”. They are just not ready to hear this, and they are still wanting to give me the appointments to take her to and payment for my time, so I indulge them! Their mother their choice, my job!
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for sharing your experience, you sound like a godsend as a caregiver! I wish I were so confident as you! :)
I'm going to start another thread about hospice care and how/when to go about it.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for the information. I only started caring for my parents 9 months ago and navigating their health care is like a mine field! I'm not sure what I need to be preparing for and how to switch to palliative care so I will probably start another thread asking for guidance.
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My mother was just in the hospital for pneumonia 2 weeks ago and is now in rehab. She has had bad neuropathy in her legs for the past 20 years, which has caused all sorts of issues like falling, vertigo, and chronic pain. So, the neurologist came to see her, as is the norm in all of her hospital stays. She said the same thing all the rest of the neurologists have said in the past: Gee whiz, there's nothing we can really do for you because nerve damage is irreversible, yada yada. However, please be sure to schedule a FOLLOW UP APPOINTMENT after you are discharged from the hospital. Um, what for, exactly, is my question? This neurologist cornered me in the foyer of the hospital on my way out to the car, believe it or not, asking me when I planned to make this follow up appointment!! My mother is 92 and wheelchair bound, and incredibly difficult to schlep around. I can't do it alone, which means my husband has to take time off from work, and then we have to pay a gigantic bill, and for WHAT? This doctor looked at me like I had two heads when I asked her why I needed to schedule a follow up. Well, she said, so I can follow your mother's neuropathy, of course! Follow it to WHAT END?

My point is this: I don't think it's necessary to take your folks to tons of doctor's appointments, just as I don't think it's necessary for me to take my mother to this neurologist's follow up appointment. Palliative care should be considered at this point in life because let's face it; once dementia (which my mother has a 'moderate' case of) sets in, the quality of their life is drastically diminished. Add to that all sorts of other health issues and we can literally be at the doctor's office 5 days a week, with an occasional weekend at the hospital thrown in.
Just today, my mother was talking about all of her sisters and brothers who have passed away, and saying that her mother is always with her these days. She said she hopes to join them in heaven sometime soon. I hope she does too. Not because I want to be rid of her, but because the quality of her life is gone, and her pain & suffering has reached a very high level. Enough is enough. Try not to feel angry or guilty about your feelings, just accept that palliative care is the best thing for your folks at this stage of life.

All the best to you as you pass through this difficult time of life, my friend
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Oh lealonnie, how I feel for you. Thank you so much for sharing your experience, it's really a journey isn't? A journey not for the faint hearted. I'm definitely going to learn more about palliative care, I feel like I've gone into caregiving with zero knowledge, but I suspect most of us do. Sending you good thoughts and strength.
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We had the same issue with my mother, who died last year. She got sick of going to so many doctors, and some of them she plain didn't like and refused to see. My mother was a very stubborn woman - you had to pick your battles carefully with her. And honestly, many primary doctors seem to think their job is to refer patients to specialists for every little symptom or abnormality. In her last few years, my mother was regularly seeing a dermatologist, neurologist, orthopedist, gastroenterologist, hematologist, cardiologist, nephrologist etc in addition to her regular doctor. She died of lymphoma but she also had arthritis, kidney disease, AFIB, coronary artery disease, diabetes, stomach ulcers, normal pressure hydrocephalus, and an assortment of other maladies.

We pared down my mother's appointments and specialists quite a bit during her last year or so of her life. In fact, one of the reasons she agreed to hospice is that it was an end to all those doctors' appointments, procedures and tests. She was even more sick of it than my sister and I were. She wanted to sit in her chair and read mystery novels and eat crackers. We pushed her only on things that were fairly acute and potentially curable, such as infections and obvious gastric bleeding.

There's no one right answer to this, but I'm satisfied with the choices we made for and with our mother, including foregoing certain referrals and treatments that would not have made a real difference for her in the long run.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
It sounds like you did a great job caring for your mom, thanks so much for sharing your experience. It's certainly challenging, but I hope I will be satisfied with my choices at the end.
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I totally understand what you are asking. I just took Mom to her cardiologist.. she goes 2x a year. Last visit we saw him for about 3 minutes.. ( I timed it.. the tech took about another 5 to get her EKG and ask some questions) Same thing this time. No changes.. there have been no changes in the 4 years she has lived here. But it took me about 30 minutes to get her and her rollator into the truck, and 30 minutes in the crowded waiting room.. I am about done with it. Her GP can handle her meds, and this is an ordeal for her. Same advice,, cut the salt, quit smoking ( not gonna happen).. But she loves Dr Hottie.. so what do we do ? She has already told him and us she wont do anything if something comes up..
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
That sounds awfully familiar! My dad's cardiologist appointments go the same way. Thanks so much for sharing your experience, it's an uphill battle isn't it?
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gkcgkc

What???? If you have to ask, the answer is ..... Some questions are best not to be asked! Especially on a forum like this. No one here can give you the absolution you seek. Not even if they think they can.
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CarlaCB Jun 2019
Disagree with this. I made the same choices as gkcgkc, and feel no need for absolution. It was the right choice for my mother in her situation.
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I am so grateful for this site and everyone on it....it is so comforting to know others have the same issues and that we have a place where we can offer each other support and tips.
I have struggled with this same issue. 89 yo Mom has been with me 8 years now. Her Dementia is progressing. We have good and bad days. I cherish the good moments and live a day or hour at a time. Planning for the future is so unpredictable.
She is fortunate to have some good drs but the long waits in the waiting room - after the 30 minute drive to the appointment and the hour to get her ready to go is a challenge for both of us — just to do a 10 minute visit.
After a recent broken tooth, I found an in home dentist that is coming for an exam next week -since I couldn’t get her to go in to any dentist - fingers crossed. ...Just trying to get an assessment of what may need to be done, if anything.
I wish there were more geriatric mobile physicians that did in home exams. It’s so tough finding geriatric physicians.
She needs an ekg, but I had to reschedule 3 times because she wouldn’t get up in time to make the last appointment of the day.
It would be so much easier on elders with dementia and their caregivers to have in home options or even more flexible office hours that would accommodate their oftentimes irregular sleep patterns;
having places with shorter wait times to get dementia patients in and out quickly would even be a help. I know when I go in to an apptmt now I am always willing to allow a senior or sick individual go ahead of me knowing how tough it is on them.

Hang in there everyone - this journey is making us all stronger and wiser. Xoxo
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anonymous809828 Jun 2019
Hi Caringfor1,
I live in Florida and we have the Home Docs and a couple of other outfits that will do home visits. They will come and draw blood, pick up urine samples, and bring a portable X-ray machine and sonogram and EKG to the house. They call with the results and bill Medicare or private insurance. They prescribed Hospice when the time came but are still her primary caregivers. They examine her each month, getting vitals, etc. They have been very helpful with palliative care. I don't know if they have these kinds of services in your state but if you found a home care dentist I'd not be surprised if there were other medical home care entities.
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gkcgkc- you said: "I feel quite bad saying "out loud" I hope my mum will pass away before the dementia gets bad. It almost feels like I am a bad person..."

I have the same hope, too. My mother has Alzheimer's going on year 3 now. I hope she will die before she has to be bedridden and in diapers, and loses all her faculty. That's not living. That's suffering. She doesn't want that for herself. I don't that for her, either. And I don't think it's wrong or bad for that to happen. It will be a relief for her and everyone else. I share that thought with close friends and relatives who understand the horror of the disease and the struggles of being a caregiver.

So, don't feel bad for hoping for the end to come. Don't beat yourself up. You're not a bad person. You're a good, decent, and caring person.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
{{{hugs}}} polarbear, thank you so very much for your kind words. They mean a lot during these difficult days. I'm trying, I really am, but I fear I fall short of my best on most days.
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I agree with most and your parents. Less can be more. Care is in home, you are most in "tune" with needs/concerns.

Given age/conditions, and desire to avoid "special medical procedures to extend their lives", I would honor that. However those are generally extensive invasive treatments, such as major surgery, chemo, feeding tubes, etc. You can balance some sensibility into appointments/treatments by looking at the big picture:

Is it going to cause discomfort/pain or terminate life? Seek treatment is advised.
Is it going to take time and progress, treatment or not?  Seek palliative care only.

Examples:

Mom got cellulitis just prior to moving her to MC. She didn't know how bad it was, didn't get checked and didn't tell one of us (she told neighbor who called me.) THAT treatment saved her life and was non-invasive/not long term (longer than normal.)

Mom had leg pain – 1st time we had doc check/Xray - resolved itself. The 2nd time she complained of pain all day for many weeks, wouldn't get up/walk and often refused to eat. Doc RXes lots of Tylenol AND ibuprofen and says dementia patients can't express their pain. EXcuse me, what? Mom knows if she doesn't feel well AND lets everyone know!! ER before the doc appt, tested everything but no new Xray . I wasn’t happy about all the OTCs and made appt with ortho. The pain was gone, but did Xrays and said if she were 20 yrs younger we'd do knee replacement. I suspected that, because she said she needed to get her knees "done", but never did. I asked for injection as a preventative so we don't go through it  again!

She had basal cell on her face. She didn't listen to us. Until her mac deg doc told her to get it checked, she ignored it. By then it had spread, required longer treatment (Mohs surgery) AND plastic surgery! Sooner would have been better - less impact. Later found a spot on her cheek, took her to dermo. The treatment was Mohs, but I felt this wasn't feasible due to the dementia, so we had a "punch" biopsy. It required recheck and second deeper punch, but so far good. It IS a slow growing skin cancer, but facial skin is thin, didn't want THAT growing!

Although she has dementia and is almost 96, she still has quality of life left - extensive treatments? No. Something 'simple' that will treat a condition? Yes.

As for the "just to be cautious" appts, ask questions, what for, IF bad, what does it mean, what treatments, how invasive, how long, how detrimental to the very old, etc. Weigh the answers/make decisions from there. If "both doctors said it's probably nothing and do scans for a couple of more years to follow up" I would question the need. Ask what the symptoms are if it IS something and watch for them. Going every year is overkill. The negative impact on mom is probably worse than leaving it alone!

"My dad has extremely bad macular degeneration and the last retina specialist said there is nothing he can do, but still wants to see him every 6 months." This one is perplexing. If there’s nothing he can do, why does he need to see your dad??? Our mother has mac deg, treated for years and we CONTINUE treatment. Doing the "tests" prior to injection is difficult, because her hearing is shot/dementia, but we NEED to preserve her eyesight! So far it’s been working.

Neglect would only come into play if you NEVER take them (once/year might be sufficient, unless something needs to be monitored/treated to avoid pain and suffering.) Neglect might impact YOU if you noticed something was amiss and ignored it. Some conditions can be easily treated, but be painful and/or life-threatening if not treated. It is a supreme balancing act!

Your dad said he doesn't want the referral appointments and Dr said he respected that/made note of it  - that should eliminate any referrals, but you should be there during the discussion and if you see some sense in some referrals/treatments, and then try to convince dad.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for sharing your experience! You make such a good point about simple vs invasive. It's good way to frame things and probably exactly what my parents mean about not over treating.
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My 90 year old, late stage Alzheimer's mom, is lucky enough to have Home Doc visits once a month and also recently Hospice nurses coming. Home Doc is actually a PA and his assistant. We decided to stop doing the routine labs, no more pacemaker checks, and nothing that will take her out of the house and force her to sit in a waiting room or doctor's office. I would take her if she had pain, which they couldn't manage from home, but otherwise she's done having any tests. She's still somewhat ambulatory but her anxiety and eyesight is such that riding in a car is just too much for her. We've had this philosophy for about a year, with Hospice coming on board in the last 3 months. The pacemaker has 7 years on the battery left, so I don't think we'll run in to any issues with that. It's all about her comfort and doing whatever we can to ease the anxiety and give her the best quality of life possible.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Yes, I need to focus on comfort and quality in their final years. It's so easy to get muddled up and caught in a cycle of endless medical appointments. Thank you so much for sharing your experience!
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Quality of life is important, too. Near the end of life, what is the impact of endless visits to the doctor on your parents and the time you get to spend with them? Medical advances are wonderful, but have also intruded into our lives. My mom has Alzheimer's and congestive heart failure. I took her on tons of visits to the doctor last year before the diagnosis for both conditions was given. I've now decided, along with my mother, to keep visits to the doctor at a practical minimum and enjoy the time we have left together. I don't feel guilty about that, and nor should you.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you. It really helps to hear others sharing their experiences and know that I'm not alone in making these difficult decisions.
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First...you taking care of both parents is a huge task, challenge...whatever you want to call it.
Ask & talk with you folks as best you can, whether they want all these medical visits. Every six months is norm for most doctors, especially for elderly on medicare. I think this is medicare's wellness thing they do. But doctors will push things to be done when really, why?
Referral appointments? Well, your folks don't want to do these! They have their will & say so. When the doctor wants to refer them to other care, in front of the doctor, ask your folks if they want to. Let them decide. If they say yes, then appoint(s) get scheduled. If they change their mind before appointment, then cancel it letting their primary doctor know of cancellation.
What ever your folks want to do, then do this.
Don't stress, fret, feel sad or bad, be frustrated, etc. It's not easy because you care for & love them & want the best. Yet, you as caregiver for both your parents & coupled with your personal life with all its actuvity & stresses, etc., your relief avenue is actually simple. Let your parents be themselves where they are & decisions they make. Just watch for them, protect them, but always discuss with them when they make decisions. Relax and enjoy mom & dad.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much LuvingSon. "let your parents be themselves" should be my mantra! I obviously need to learn to relax into this role, if I can.
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gkcgkc You are beating Yourself up needlessly. Your Dad is 89 years and Your Mom is 85 years. While I know Your Mom has dementia and Your Dad has a weak heart hence ask Yourself how many years longer do You think Your Parents will live by attending to all of their Hospital appointments ? not to mention the stress these appointments put on Your Parents. In my honest opinion I would ignore the appointments as I did when I was Caring for my Late Mother
who had alzheimer's simply because I could see how much stress those Hospital appointments put on Mom plus waiting in the Hospital corridors for hours and then finally to be seen by a Baby Doctor Who was fresh out of Training College. This was all just a learning exercise. I know Junior Doctors need to gain experience but at what cost ? Why not call to the Patients Home to examine Them instead.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you. Having read all the wonderful responses, I feel much less stressed. And you're quite right, attending all these appointments don't extend life, especially quality of life.
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Your parents were clear they did not want special life extending care. Their primary acknowledges it. Keep the periodic appointments with the primary. Judge any findings on it's own marrit. Your dr is documenting and he agrees. There's no neglect there. I have been in the same situation. Sometimes you want to rush in and get them "all better." But, what is better for them does not mean they have to be made miserable with all the proceedures drs want to do. You are being an advocate for what your parents said their wishes are. "Find" a support for yourself who understands to bounce decisions off of. Talking it through helps. Good luck.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for your kind words. You are right, I aim for 'all better', but there is not such thing at this point.
I feel so fortunate to have found this support group, I was really lost.
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Never lose sight of the knowledge you have within. No one knows better than you, who has known them longest, what they want/desire. It's sort of like you managing a paliative care plan. You want to do the essential visits to make sure they have access to the meds that keep them comfortable. Do they have living wills, POA's in place for health care? That can be your guide. As for the MD's who seem to be the ones forcing these visits...it smells very much like our local hospital system that churns patients for more visits the system can brag about (we've served a zillion million etc) and especially more $$$$$ even though they are NON profit. You might be able to engage a home care nurse to monitor things. Otherwise you could consider what, once a year? Unless something serious crops up. You have to change your mindset. It's not neglect, it's being a tuned in caring daughter watching out for their comfort and well-being, and if avoiding non-essential visits makes them happier and comfortable, so be it. As I write this, I realized this past week that oops, I forgot to schedule a routine 6 month follow-up for my parents MD. In the past we had an MD we loved. Even me who hates MD's:-) This one I am trying too hard to like. So I'm almost glad I forgot and I'm going to ask Dad if he'd like to try someone else. Mom would never agree to going at this point because she has dementia and thinks she is fine or thinks someone will find out she isn't. We get her to go by booking appts back to back for both. I announce on arrival that Mom DOES NOT have an appt (wink wink/eye roll) and they do what they can...weigh her if she'll go along, and the MD does a quick listen to her heart ($$) so he can bill...and usually dad being deaf takes up all of mom's time anyhow. It takes time, but hopefully you will learn not to sweat this stuff and just let it go. It's been hard for me but I'm getting better at it.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Your situations sounds so like mine! "Just let go" - yeah, I definitely need to work on that.
Do you have any idea how to get a home care nurse? Their PCP actually wrote a prescription for a visiting nurse, but no one at the hospital or doctor's office seems to have any idea how to go about getting one? Nor does anyone know if Medicare covers home nurse visits.
It's like a maze!
Yes, they both have POAs and advanced directives and the advanced directives are on file at the doctor's office.
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First I have to wonder why if they want nothing done to extend their lives why the scans? If they would do nothing if "something" were found why the testing?
If the doctor appointments are for something other than truly necessary scheduled visits do not make any more.
Make sure they have a DNR or better yet a POLST signed. A POLST is a Physicians Order for Life Sustaining Treatment. Much more detailed than a DNR.
Once you have the document signed make copies. Have a copy with you at all times, a copy with each of them in a purse or wallet and a copy hanging on the refrigerator so First Responders can see it right away. And make sure one is in each of their medical files. Better in their EMR (electronic medical record)
If the POLST is not available when first responders arrive or if they go to the hospital they will do what they can to save them. (same if what you have is a DNR, if they don't have it it does not exist )
Keep necessary appointments and if a doctor wants to schedule a test ask why and if they want to see them more than what would be routine ask why.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for the advice -will hospitals and first responders accept a copy of an advanced directive? I don't need to the original with me at all times?
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They have expressed their wishes to the effect they do not want life-prolonging procedures and doctors have both signed their advance directives (I hope that you are also their power of attorney for health care, this needing to be done when they are lucid). The doctors have signed and have noted in their charts their wishes. Certainly you do not have to be doing scans and tests, which are the cash cows of the medical system with elders. Simply explain to the doctors that, were something to be "found" on the tests, it would not be treated, as that has always been your parent's express wish to you all of their lives; You should immediately ask for a Palliative Care Consult and POLSTS should be made out and hung on the refrigerator so that your parents are not resucitating in the event they are found peacefully gone at home; otherwise the emergency response team is by law required to attempt resuscitation. The first step is for you to go with your parents to their primary physician. To tell him that of course any medical conditions such as pneumonia, etc. will be treated, but that there will no longer be medical tests on heart, kidney, lungs, etc, which are undoubtedly now failing, as is the natural course of end of life; you should explain wish for palliative care. If there is any balking you may need the support of licensed social worker who works in end of life care. The parent who is still lucid should sign all papers, be with you at the appointment. Good luck to you all.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you so much for your kind reply and information. Is visiting their PCP the first step in seeking palliative care - I should request a Palliative Care Consult? When I tried to get a visiting home nurse I was told they had to be hospitalised first and then assigned a social worker. I don't know how to go about finding a social worker BEFORE they are hospitalised. I could really use a one to help guide me!
When I recently asked the Dr about a POLST he had no idea what I was talking about!
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Do not feel guilty by following their directions.
Ive told my children over and over what I want/do not want. I have to trust them to follow through.
Follow through for your parents.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thank you! I've done the same with my children. Emphatically. But I know understand it's difficult from the other position of having to follow out the wishes. But you are right, follow through for my parents. I'm trying, really I am, but they don't make it easy.
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Great job with your parents, I honestly don't know how you do it all. Please do decrease the amount of medical appts your parents have. I don't know who could help you choose which ones to prioritize tho. I had similar issue with my mother, except that she was always adding another specialist for me to drive her to. It got absurd, between various Drs, dentist, grocery & bank trips, haircuts, lab work, ect
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
Thanks Tiger55! Somehow it's reassuring to know others are grappling with the same type of challenges. Yes, medical appointments are the the beginning - there are all the many other errands that need tending to! It's truly a full time job. I often feel like the maid, chauffeur, nurse, social worker all in one!
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Gkcgkc - It sounds like you are doing very good things for your parents. I agree with your decisions about the suggested dr. appointments and do not think you are being neglectful. We know our own situations, and we know what is best for us (or parents). I am open to getting a doctor's opinion, but default to my own instincts which might not be the same as the doctor's. I do tend to think they schedule too many "follow up" and "monitoring" appointments without looking at the big picture. I guess that is where our judgement comes in. If there is a problem, you can usually tell. If or when that happens, then the doctor will have an obvious situation to treat without additional "testing" to find a problem you never knew you had.
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gkcgkc Jun 2019
You are so kind GingerMay, thank you. It's a difficult thing to maneuver our way through the end of life. Using our best instincts might well be the only thing that can guide us correctly!
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It is very hard on the old folks. Doctors' offices do not take into account the amount of time it takes an old person to keep that 5-minute appointment for which Medicare gets $$$billed$$$.

For my FIL, it takes at least one hour for him to get ready to leave his apartment for any appointment. And, by the time he gets back home, he's exhausted and has to take an extra long nap.

Unless and until we the caregivers push back on unnecessary medical appointments and unnecessary spending by Medicare, nothing will change.
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gdaughter Jun 2019
Not even mentioning the exhaustion of the good daughters escorting!
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My 93 yo mother who lives with me has dementia/Alzheimers and doesn't do well at drs appointments at all. In fact, it's torture! She developed a small bed sore on her tailbone after a month long hospital stay. Home health visited her twice weekly to change dressings etc. It was healing but slooowly. She gained weight from 86 pounds to 110 pounds which helped tremendously putting some extra "padding" back there. Anyway the "bedsore" got down to a pinhole size that you needed a magnifying glass to see and no bleeding or rawness...for lack of a better word. However since there was still a lil hole home health asked that she see a wound specialist. They recommended a clinic but warned us of the long wait time there. I took my mother once a month. First couple appts were 2 hour wait time before being called back! My poor mother was miserable! She would ask patients waiting to be seen how to get outta there. It was terrible! Dr put her on silvadene cream which really improved it but then at the next appointment changed to something that didn't work and back and forth back and forth and even went back to a treatment that didn't work before ...crazy. The craziest part though was putting my mother through all that for a microscopic hole. The last time we were there our wait time was 4 hours!!! They had to literally pull my mother out of a wheelchair to a standing position to even examine her because she was so exhausted from the wait...and she was still mobile then. When the Dr came in I told him we wanted to be dismissed that it was just too much for her so he said return if didn't heal. I decided to switch her back to Silvadene cream which was working in the first place and the microscopic hole is now closed. Know this was a long story but my point is sometimes with all these appointments we just have to consider if it's worth putting them through all of it. My mother was one that never wanted to go to drs anyway when her mind was good. I've gone through the guilt trips too wondering if I am doing the right thing but sometimes we have to trust our gut instinct. Good luck to you know it's hard making these decisions
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gkcgkc May 2019
Thank you so much for sharing your experience. Somehow it really helps to know others are in a similar situation. Last time my dad had a CT scan he fell asleep in the waiting room, it's really hard on these old folks!
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No you are not being neglectful.

I don't understand the whole nothing I can do, but bill you for unnecessary appointments that only cost me about 5 minutes max. So come back !

I agree with other posters that say use your best judgment and prioritize.

I saw my dad go from his death bed to a functioning senior because he was getting the medical care he required, but I asked questions if I felt like he was just being seen for the insurance payment. I also asked his necessary specialists questions about his health and what to watch for so they knew that if anything changed that should be seen I would get him in. He was only seeing his cardiologist and nephrologist every 6 months when he left. He had recovered quite well and they were doctors with integrity. Not easy to find unfortunately.

My husband's pulmonologist had him coming in every month and after the 5th month of alls well I asked what the purpose of monthly visits were, he said he didn't need to see him again unless he had problems. Nice.

Do not feel guilty following their choices that were made when they were of sound mind, that's what they want and God bless them for giving you the gift of just following their wishes and not having to make decisions.
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gkcgkc May 2019
Thanks so much for sharing your experience. It's really like a rabbit hole sometimes, specialists and testing and more specialists and more testing. I told my father, even if they found out there was something wrong would you want to treat it? He said no.
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