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To clarify, your original question says you are joint tenant owners with your dad, but then in a reply it says that the house was sold to the siblings for $1.00. So does that mean that your dad still owns the house along with the two of you, or that you two siblings own the house outright and your father is no longer on the deed as an owner? Did the $1.00 buy you each a share along with your dad, or full ownership free of your dad?
It probably was done for “$ 1.00 and other valuable consideration” as they are in a State that requires any transfer of real property to have value placed for it to be recorded at the courthouse. They can’t change title for zero.
on the flip side, those States usually require that if a son or a daughter is to be disinherited by the elder parents will, that the will reads something like “to my eldest daughter, Tina Marie, born XYZ, I leave the sum of $1.00”. They can’t put in the will “I leave Tina Marie nothing”.
Sometimes it’s $100.00 instead of $1.00. Sometimes it’s $10. What I’ve been told is that it establishes that the person is aware that their house / their Estate has a value.
Mama, take all the paperwork and see a Real Estate Attorney so they can clarify just what was done and what it means for property responsibilities both now while elder is alive and then after death and how the transfer gets done after death. The “free and clear” means there was no mortgage/no securitized loan on the house at the time the paperwork was done in 2001. It does not preclude a lien or a claim or a judgement to be attached to the property in the future.
After reading your additional posts, it’s confusing. Imho what you need to know is IF what you have is a Life Estate or IF it is a Joint Tenancy. The responsibility is different btwn these 2 for dealing with property costs. And how your States LTC Medicaid program looks at LE and JT will be different as well. It’s going to be super important as to if -IF - it is subject to Estate Recovery. This is real estate atty work to suss out the nuances of what LE & JT means especially if there are remainderman that has to be determined. Dealing with remainderman is imo never ever a DIY. And imho it really isn’t elder law atty work, it’s real estate atty work.
You need the clarification that an attorney can bring for how this runs for your State laws.
also I think you are being a bit too unrealistic that “Medicaid will take over”. If the folks have “family investments”, their LTC Medicaid application will be quite complex. And best done by an elder law attorney as I bet there is all sorts of bank/investment accounts and tax filings (esp K-1) that will pose eligibility issues “Investments” imply it’s way beyond a simple 1040 a single checking and savings bank account.
By applying for LTC Medicaid you basically give an all access pass to them…. So they can get State tax records, IRS filings, bank records, corporate registration database, LexusNexxus and anything that in any way has used their names or SS# without needing to ask you for permission. And it won’t be the local level caseworker doing this. Applications like this - in my experience- go to a regional staff who has more experience and they do a more forensic analysis on the applicant and their spouse as they get records from multiple sources. What tends to happen is they then ask the POA for additional details on the item in question with a required response from POA in 10/15 days or be deemed ineligible due to non compliance on requested item. Fwiw Medicaid can go back 10 years for their review. This is way way waaay to cumbersome so States do just a 5 or 3 yr approach. But if need be they can. Please pls do not try to DIY any of this…. get RE atty for the property and then an experienced EL attorney.
So helpful. Our plan is for a sibling to purchase the home once Dad is in the NH. Our concern is will we eventually be responsible to Medicaid for any part of the house? The house is owed free and clear but looking at taxes was something we hadn’t thought of. Basically the WD says that the house was sold to the siblings for $1 with parents having the ability to stay. The family have investments that will pay for about a year of the NH then Medicaid would take over. We just are unclear whether it will be the investments then and sale of the house or is the house protected. Def didn’t know about PNA-def thank you for that.
How long ago were you added to the deed? In most states this becomes an issue if it was done within the last five years, but I gather from reading what others have written here that it may be a shorter period in New York State. That is for Medicaid, I should add, which Igloo discusses in her usual very informative way.
Does the current tax bill read only your father’s name as owner? But for how it is recorded at the courthouse, it is done as a JTWRO aka Joint tenants with right of survivorship? and when was this done? and is there any mortgage or HELOC or other securitized lending that has the property as collateral? and how is your Dad going to pay for his stay in a facility? All of these matter for how all States evaluate eligibility for the Long Term Care Medicaid program and how the property is viewed as (for recovery) after the elders death. It is this specific program which is the one that will pay for custodial care costs in a facility (usually a skilled nursing care facility) and it’s MERP that does after death aspects.
Warranty Deed / WD is the most common way that titles and deeds are done for residential property. WD means that the ownership is “guaranteed” so bought with a clear title and usually has a title company and title insurance that was involved in completing the Act of Sale. If you were to go onto the County Property rolls, each parcel should have next to its identifier the letters WD or TD or LE or QCD. It designates how the property was conveyed.
Oftentimes the POA and families are unaware that the LTC Medicaid program has a required Share of Cost / Resident Liability that must be paid to the facility. This will be all of the elders monthly income (like their SS income) less a smallish Personal Needs Allowance. PNA - like everything Medicaid - varies by State with most doing a PNA of $50 - $75 a month. So if your dad wants to continue to own his home by & large LTC Medicaid allows for that. But due to the SOC requirement, he will have zero-nada-no $ of his own to pay all the many costs (taxes, property insurance, utilities, repairs, yard work) that having a home has. (also he also will have no $ to pay his credit cards or by other debts as well; he’ll default on those too.) So all costs on his house fall to family to pay while he is alive and probably 1-2 years post death.
I’ve been on this forum a long time and over & over again the POA and family is totally gobsmacked that the SOC exists. Usually the heirs are ok with paying & doing for a brief period of time….. but when that family cooperation stops, it falls to 1 family member to do and pay for everything for Dads/Moms house and it is just not feasible for both the costs involved and the future risk that the also required attempt by the Medicaid Estate Recovery program could place a lien or a claim. What tends to happen is one of the spouses is totally disinterested in paying a penny on the old place. Future heirs and Co owners do not have to pay and the good sibling heir/POA cannot make them. Yet if they become an owner due to the JTROS or by a Lady Bird Deed or by being named in a will, they still are a heir. The sibling who is paying tends to flat runs out of $+time+energy, so house goes up for sale; the parent does a spend down to private pay for care till they are once again impoverished for LTC Medicaid eligibility.
You know your family best as to what they are like when it comes to $ and reliability. Elders retaining ownership of their home while on LTC Medicaid can happen but that POA kinda has to have the wallet, time and a sense of humor.
I think we each own each a third but Im also finding language that says that we pd $1 for the house and my Dad (just) has the right to live there as long as he is alive or wants to.
By proceeding, I agree that I understand the following disclosures:
I. How We Work in Washington.
Based on your preferences, we provide you with information about one or more of our contracted senior living providers ("Participating Communities") and provide your Senior Living Care Information to Participating Communities. The Participating Communities may contact you directly regarding their services.
APFM does not endorse or recommend any provider. It is your sole responsibility to select the appropriate care for yourself or your loved one. We work with both you and the Participating Communities in your search. We do not permit our Advisors to have an ownership interest in Participating Communities.
II. How We Are Paid.
We do not charge you any fee – we are paid by the Participating Communities. Some Participating Communities pay us a percentage of the first month's standard rate for the rent and care services you select. We invoice these fees after the senior moves in.
III. When We Tour.
APFM tours certain Participating Communities in Washington (typically more in metropolitan areas than in rural areas.) During the 12 month period prior to December 31, 2017, we toured 86.2% of Participating Communities with capacity for 20 or more residents.
IV. No Obligation or Commitment.
You have no obligation to use or to continue to use our services. Because you pay no fee to us, you will never need to ask for a refund.
V. Complaints.
Please contact our Family Feedback Line at (866) 584-7340 or ConsumerFeedback@aplaceformom.com to report any complaint. Consumers have many avenues to address a dispute with any referral service company, including the right to file a complaint with the Attorney General's office at: Consumer Protection Division, 800 5th Avenue, Ste. 2000, Seattle, 98104 or 800-551-4636.
VI. No Waiver of Your Rights.
APFM does not (and may not) require or even ask consumers seeking senior housing or care services in Washington State to sign waivers of liability for losses of personal property or injury or to sign waivers of any rights established under law.
I agree that:
A.
I authorize A Place For Mom ("APFM") to collect certain personal and contact detail information, as well as relevant health care information about me or from me about the senior family member or relative I am assisting ("Senior Living Care Information").
B.
APFM may provide information to me electronically. My electronic signature on agreements and documents has the same effect as if I signed them in ink.
C.
APFM may send all communications to me electronically via e-mail or by access to an APFM web site.
D.
If I want a paper copy, I can print a copy of the Disclosures or download the Disclosures for my records.
E.
This E-Sign Acknowledgement and Authorization applies to these Disclosures and all future Disclosures related to APFM's services, unless I revoke my authorization. You may revoke this authorization in writing at any time (except where we have already disclosed information before receiving your revocation.) This authorization will expire after one year.
F.
You consent to APFM's reaching out to you using a phone system than can auto-dial numbers (we miss rotary phones, too!), but this consent is not required to use our service.
on the flip side, those States usually require that if a son or a daughter is to be disinherited by the elder parents will, that the will reads something like “to my eldest daughter, Tina Marie, born XYZ, I leave the sum of $1.00”. They can’t put in the will “I leave Tina Marie nothing”.
Sometimes it’s $100.00 instead of $1.00. Sometimes it’s $10. What I’ve been told is that it establishes that the person is aware that their house / their Estate has a value.
After reading your additional posts, it’s confusing. Imho what you need to know is IF what you have is a Life Estate or IF it is a Joint Tenancy. The responsibility is different btwn these 2 for dealing with property costs. And how your States LTC Medicaid program looks at LE and JT will be different as well. It’s going to be super important as to if -IF - it is subject to Estate Recovery. This is real estate atty work to suss out the nuances of what LE & JT means especially if there are remainderman that has to be determined. Dealing with remainderman is imo never ever a DIY. And imho it really isn’t elder law atty work, it’s real estate atty work.
You need the clarification that an attorney can bring for how this runs for your State laws.
also I think you are being a bit too unrealistic that “Medicaid will take over”. If the folks have “family investments”, their LTC Medicaid application will be quite complex. And best done by an elder law attorney as I bet there is all sorts of bank/investment accounts and tax filings (esp K-1) that will pose eligibility issues “Investments” imply it’s way beyond a simple 1040 a single checking and savings bank account.
By applying for LTC Medicaid you basically give an all access pass to them…. So they can get State tax records, IRS filings, bank records, corporate registration database, LexusNexxus and anything that in any way has used their names or SS# without needing to ask you for permission. And it won’t be the local level caseworker doing this. Applications like this - in my experience- go to a regional staff who has more experience and they do a more forensic analysis on the applicant and their spouse as they get records from multiple sources. What tends to happen is they then ask the POA for additional details on the item in question with a required response from POA in 10/15 days or be deemed ineligible due to non compliance on requested item. Fwiw Medicaid can go back 10 years for their review. This is way way waaay to cumbersome so States do just a 5 or 3 yr approach. But if need be they can. Please pls do not try to DIY any of this…. get RE atty for the property and then an experienced EL attorney.
Def didn’t know about PNA-def thank you for that.
Creditors are a separate issue.
But for how it is recorded at the courthouse, it is done as a JTWRO aka Joint tenants with right of survivorship?
and
when was this done?
and
is there any mortgage or HELOC or other securitized lending that has the property as collateral?
and
how is your Dad going to pay for his stay in a facility?
All of these matter for how all States evaluate eligibility for the Long Term Care Medicaid program and how the property is viewed as (for recovery) after the elders death. It is this specific program which is the one that will pay for custodial care costs in a facility (usually a skilled nursing care facility) and it’s MERP that does after death aspects.
Warranty Deed / WD is the most common way that titles and deeds are done for residential property. WD means that the ownership is “guaranteed” so bought with a clear title and usually has a title company and title insurance that was involved in completing the Act of Sale. If you were to go onto the County Property rolls, each parcel should have next to its identifier the letters WD or TD or LE or QCD. It designates how the property was conveyed.
Oftentimes the POA and families are unaware that the LTC Medicaid program has a required Share of Cost / Resident Liability that must be paid to the facility. This will be all of the elders monthly income (like their SS income) less a smallish Personal Needs Allowance. PNA - like everything Medicaid - varies by State with most doing a PNA of $50 - $75 a month. So if your dad wants to continue to own his home by & large LTC Medicaid allows for that. But due to the SOC requirement, he will have zero-nada-no $ of his own to pay all the many costs (taxes, property insurance, utilities, repairs, yard work) that having a home has. (also he also will have no $ to pay his credit cards or by other debts as well; he’ll default on those too.) So all costs on his house fall to family to pay while he is alive and probably 1-2 years post death.
I’ve been on this forum a long time and over & over again the POA and family is totally gobsmacked that the SOC exists. Usually the heirs are ok with paying & doing for a brief period of time….. but when that family cooperation stops, it falls to 1 family member to do and pay for everything for Dads/Moms house and it is just not feasible for both the costs involved and the future risk that the also required attempt by the Medicaid Estate Recovery program could place a lien or a claim. What tends to happen is one of the spouses is totally disinterested in paying a penny on the old place. Future heirs and Co owners do not have to pay and the good sibling heir/POA cannot make them. Yet if they become an owner due to the JTROS or by a Lady Bird Deed or by being named in a will, they still are a heir. The sibling who is paying tends to flat runs out of $+time+energy, so house goes up for sale; the parent does a spend down to private pay for care till they are once again impoverished for LTC Medicaid eligibility.
You know your family best as to what they are like when it comes to $ and reliability. Elders retaining ownership of their home while on LTC Medicaid can happen but that POA kinda has to have the wallet, time and a sense of humor.