Why hospice gets away with killing people?

I am sure they asked about going off medications.
A person on Hospice can continue with medications. If they are not covered by hospice they can be paid for "out of pocket"
If he was refusing fluids and food they were right to tell you to stop giving him fluids and food. To give fluid and food when the body is not processing it can cause more harm and can be painful. If he was still eating and drinking then you continue to give food and fluids. To not give food and fluid to someone that is still eating and drinking is negligent and you and any caregiver could still provide nutrition. (If he is still able to eat or drink)
Hospice does not "kill people"
First of all to "kill" patients would not be a wise financial decision. When the patient dies they no longer get paid by Medicare, Medicaid or other Insurance.
What you have to realize is ALL patients on Hospice ARE GOING TO DIE. It is a matter of when and no one can predict that.
Unfortunately many people are referred to Hospice far too late in the disease process. many die within a week of getting on Hospice so the patient nor the family can take full advantage of what Hospice can offer. Part of the blame is on the doctors that refuse to "give up" and will continually treat a patient that has no chance of recovery. And part of the blame is on family that refuse Hospice because they don't want to accept that their LO is dying. And the uninformed few that believe that hospice "kills people"

If you actually think Hospice killed your father then you are within your right to ask for an autopsy and a criminal investigation as to how he died.
I realize you are grieving now and perhaps as time goes on you will come to understand that your dad was going to die and that Hospice did not hasten his death in any way.

I will add...if Hospice does "kill people" and that is what they do they did a real poor job of it with my Husband. He was on Hospice for almost 3 YEARS, He got the best care, I got support and guidance. I could not have done what I did for him if it weren't for Hospice and the wonderful staff.

I am so sorry for your fathers diagnosis of stage 4 lung cancer. You have not indicated if your father has passed or if you have removed him from Hospice.

You hostile view of hospice I believe is not accurate and I believe defense mechanism to cope with the decline of your father. Life expectancy of this diagnosis is 4-13 months without treatment. And, that is where Hospice comes into play. When going into Hospice care the process is clear and concise with the patient and patients representative.

Did you confer with your father or his proxy his wishes? Are you in a state that is accepting of medical assisted death and perhaps your father has chosen this route for end of life care?

I am truly sorry for the anguish it has caused you and would recommend grief counseling. Wishing you peace and strength during this difficult time.

How sad that, even while knowing your father was dying of end stage--stage IV cancer--that you wanted him to remain here suffering so that you would not have to lose him.

The DSM-4 diagnostics now define "Complicated Grieving" as a diagnosis that requires the help of the mental health community. This means that your insurance will often cover your seeing a really good in person cognitive therapist to help you with your grief. I highly recommend seeking help for yourself.

Do know that Hospice also will help with complicated grieving, and grief of your loss. They have Social Workers and clergy to help you.

I am so sorry for your loss. We all will lose our parents. Those enough to have them see us into adulthood are lucky indeed, and lucky when we love them so much that their loss is hard to bear. But in your grieving your Dad's loss learn to also give thanks for suffering you didn't have to witness; prior to hospice as an RN I saw things that were truly unbearable. And also remember to celebrate a life of love well-lived.

My very best to you. Give yourself some time. Then seek help for yourself. You deserve that.

Your father died from lung cancer. Why would you give him water and cause more suffering as he drowns in lung fluids? Why would you add more fluid in his body only for it to end up in his lungs?

I’m sorry your dad died. Hospice did not murder your dad.

Who approved hospice for him?

Hospice was doing what hospice does. I'm very sorry for your painful loss and the extra pain of believing he wasn't going to die if it hadn't been for hospice. Please accept that hospice did not kill your Father. May you receive peace in your heart as you grieve.

My condolences over the loss of your father from stage 4 lung cancer. Be grateful your father was kept comfortable and out of the excruciating pain he would've been in without help from hospice. God bless and help you accept that it was dad's time to go, and nothing hospice "did" to him.

You can hire any Hospice you wish and fire them too. I had a selection of Hospice companies to interview. If you truly felt like they weren't caring for your loved one, you should have fired them. If you felt like you couldn't fire them, then you should have called 911 and an ambulance would of taken your loved one to the hospital, which would also end Hospice services. Then if or when you resumed them, you could hire a totally different company.

If someone was medical POA for dad, they could have approved hospice care for him. If he didn’t have a POA, it’s likely that dad signed himself into hospice. Whoever signed was informed what hospice care is.

If someone or their POA isn’t satisfied with the care hospice provides, they can sign themself out. No more hospice! So why was dad left in hospice care?

My sincere condolences.

Hi. I’m so sorry. Our dad died on hospice in 2023. My sister is a doctor, and she was the one our family listened to over administering dosages of comfort meds. The dosages we were told were tiny, like .25 ml or a sixth of an mscontin syringe. That’s not killing anyone.

After I spent the last night with dad, I researched quite heavily what dosages ir would take to actually kill someone and what else would need to be done so that I could take myself out were i in this state. It takes a lot. It takes knowing what to mix them with. Its not something a nurse will facilitate.

I’m sorry for your loss. My dad also died on home hospice, a plan he chose for himself. We found the removal of longtime meds made zero difference for him, he was exactly the same without taking meds he’d been told for years were vital. We were grateful for the meds of hospice in his last week, he was comfortable, not gasping for breath, not in pain, not fearful, but at peace. I wish you much healing, comfort and peace

Hospice provides end of life comfort. They do not provide medications for prolonging life or treating medical conditions. If you choose, you can buy the blood pressure and lupus pills and give it to him.
Someone had to request hospice care, because they saw that his life was not going to be prolonged any further with medication, and the benefit of hospice is providing a nurse and comfort care, as well as emotional support for the family.
I'm so sorry you've lost your father.

They do not do this. That's not what happened to your dad. I am sorry that you are grieving over the loss of your dad, but that's not what happened to him. The removal of the pills was not going to cause him immediate harm or else they wouldn't keep them from him. I think you should call the hospice service, or any hospice service to ask what they actually do. Or read about it, not ask if they are allowed to kill patients.

OP--LoveYouDad--

It looks like you just popped into the WRONG FORUM for your needs.
We who have struggled with and FOR our loved ones, for the most part have nothing but good to say of Hospice.
While we might long for the hospice of old, where it was not such a rote thing of three baths a week, one RN visit, free equipment rental, one Social Service call, one Clergy call, etc.--the old way where it was a menu designed to OUR/THEIR needs--We are still left with "as good as it gets here" in terms of good supportive end of life care devised to spare our loved ones endless and needless suffering.

Sorry, it is SELFISH to wish to have your loved one tormented endlessly so that you do not have to face what is, if we live long enough, an inevitable loss.

You need help. Please seek it with a good mental health professional.

Im sure your tired of all the condolences but I genuinely offer mine in your father's passing. I had the EXACT same thought hours after I lost my mother 22 days after hospice begin at home services. It was my mother's wishes to die in her home on her terms. She had kidney cancer diagnosed in May of 2018. She opted at the time to not undergo any invasive treatment, surgery, chemo, etc. she was 82 at the time. She fought breast cancer back in 1995 when she was 55 years old and the chemo alone almost killed her she said there was no way she would put herself through that in her eighties. She would go on to make a directive of care indicating her DNR wishes. I started as her caretaker to give her the best quality of life I could. In the beginning she was able to still enjoy traveling and activities with family & friends for the next 5 years as her mobility steadily declined. She hated getting older and refused to celebrate her birthday with much fanfare. Fortunately my mother kept her wits and was sharp up until the end. She would talk to me about her wishes and I had to promise when the time came I wouldn't do any kind of life support or life extending care. I saw how depressed she was not being able to do the things she once loved, driving, dancing, tending her beautiful gardens, etc. So in the last couple of months she fell more, she started throwing up after eating. We would call the ambulance twice, the second call ended her up in the hospital for 2 nights, 3 days. My mother had the best primary care physician and friend for over 27 years. He talked to us, and with her age decided it's time for hospice, he actually said we were so fortunate to have had her last 7 plus years since the initial diagnosis. He said if the same diagnosis was given to a 50 something person they would've been gone in 12 months, so in a sense we were lucky. I still didn't feel lucky realizing this was gonna be the end. So hospice came in and yes they stopped all medications mom was on and I was going into shock I think, they were great in explaining everything they were doing. My mother also reassured me this was for the best and tried to make me accept this as a natural part of life. She was 89 years and 42 days old when she took her last breath. About 29 hours of solid sleeping she was in comfort no pain just slowly fading into the next transition of life. At the time I wanted to call an ambulance and use every resource in modern medicine known and unknown to save her life, up to even throwing a virgin in a volcano if need be but I accepted her wishes and just said my goodbyes. I was lucky to have friends and family there the day she passed, the hospice CNA a true angel, was also by our side. The emotions you feel when the person who was the strongest, wisest and loved you the most dies is immense and overwhelming. I went through extreme sadness then anger thinking the same thing if hospice didn't take her off her pills and did more to "help" her I would still have her. Then I thought about her quality life she had and I felt guilty for wishing that and I felt relief she was no longer here suffering a life she never wanted, being confined to her home the last 6 months or so. I still cry at a drop of a hat and I am not sure how to go on yet but I have realized hospice was a blessing in the end. I hope you find the peace and understanding you need my friend!

Were you there when Dad was admitted? Thats when the admitting Nurse should have explained what was going to happen. I was given a folder. If not then, the weekly Nurse could have answered any questions you had.

Hospice is end of life. Its confort care. Stage 4 your Dad was dying. Family is taught how to give medication. All life sustaining medications are stopped. Morphine is given for pain, which you father was probably in a lot of. Its also given for ease of breathing. Sometimes a person is knocked out with Morphine because the pain is so bad thats the only way it can be controlled. People dying get anxious which is not good for them so they are given something for that.

Having problems swallowing is the first sign that the body is shutting down. At that point food and water are stopped. The body can no longer digest it. Feeding a person in this stage is more harmful than good. The person is actively dying.

Everything you have mentioned is how Hospice works. They are not there to keep a person alive, they are there to make them as comfortable as possible during their transition and hopefully with no pain. They did not kill Dad, the lung cancer did. He would have passed with or without Hospice.

I actually wish it were true that hospice could help us die. There are tons of folks in terrible pain who want to die, but cannot, since euthanasia is against the law for human beings. They have to go to Sweden and deal with rigamarole and jump thru 1000 hoops to get the Die With Dignity program. More things disqualify them than qualify them, too. Then we have the constant posts here asking why hospice gets away with killing people! I had to literally BEG my mother's doctor to order a hospice evaluation for her, at 94 yrs old, with CHF, neuropathy, afib, advanced dementia, serious agitation and about 10 other issues including being wheelchair bound, incontinent and sleepless. She was denied the first time! I asked again the following month for another evaluation and that time she was accepted, by the grace of God. I finally saw mom calm, after 3 yrs of agitation and misery, after hospice came on board! She died 3 months later in peace and comfort, needing miniscule amounts of pain meds to keep her comfortable. The meds didn't kill her. Being 95 and having all those disease processes going on in her poor body killed her. After suffering needlessly for WAY TOO LONG, imo. I rejoiced to see her pass and know she was finally, FINALLY at peace with God. I thank God for hospice daily.

I will say this once again about the hospice nurses. They are not doctors nor do they usually have the credentials to fill in as doctors. If your dad could still swallow plus was asking, I’d tell the nurse that I’d be following up with their actual doctor about not having water or anything else. My dad was able to enjoy his Korean soup and his ice cream until the end as he was asking and swallowing. I would frankly call admin on any RN “ordering” he couldn’t have that as if those RNs can order that.

The nurse is only over there weekly. Someone else was giving him pills, so,eome in the family.

My family has gone through hospice care with loved ones three times in the last 5 years. (and once a number of years before that). The culmination of that care was that each of them passed.

They were not killed by hospice. They were killed by whatever disease got them admitted to hospice in the first place.

While I certainly cannot rule out that in the many years of hospice care, someone may have died (early) as a result of something a hospice nurse did - at the end of the day - hospice is an end-of-life comfort care organization. They are admitted to hospice with a diagnosis that gives them fewer than 6 months to live (that does not always mean that is the timeline, just that it is the parameter).

Often, people who believe that hospice killed their loved one had not yet come to terms with the fact that their loved one was actively dying. That is a very hard thing to accept. But if you aren't able to process and accept it, it can feel like hospice had a hand in it. They don't. They are there for comfort care, to ease the end-of-life transition. Stopping water and food may seem cruel, until you realize that doing those things could cause a very unnecessarily painful way to die, because the body is shutting down and cannot process the intake. Choking on food they have no way to process or taking in more fluid when they are already drowning internally can be very cruel - with no cruelty intended.

Hospice is not intended to be curative. They are intended to comfort the loved one - and the family as the time comes.

It sounds like it was determined that the dying process had begun and giving food or water would have caused undue discomfort since organs were in the process of shutting down.

I've witnessed this several times with loved ones going through the dying process. Some years ago, I had a client who was in the active stages of the dying process.

The body goes through a shut down process before the actual death takes place.

Right now, you are grieving. Anger is part of the grieving process. It is a normal response to be angry at the medical team who took care of your dad in his final moment.

I'm sorry for your loss.